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What team's offensive package would most suit the Raptors?

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  • #16
    Initially I was thinking a system similar to the Billups Pistons. What Coach Karl has done in Denver would be interesting to look at too.

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    • #17
      I've been thinking about this a lot. And I really think Toronto's talent does not align well enough with any one team to simply copy their offensive package.
      -I also don't get the Indy comparisons. Completely different rosters with nothing in common beyond similarities between George and Gay.
      -I also don't think the Nuggets model really makes sense. They don't have a big like the kind JV will turn out to be. Though the rest of the roster fits somewhat well.
      -Nor does a team like San Antonio, where the skills don't align well enough.

      What I would like to see.....

      Better transition offense. This is obviously something we all want given the athletes on this team. This is the one area where they simply have to be better, no excuses. Roster-wise they may not be a perfect match for Denver, Miami or LAC, but t hey have similarities to all. They have athletic bigs, like Denver or LAC, a tough-minded quick PG (always thought Lowry's ceiling was a poor man's Chris Paul), and wings who are big and athletic like Denver or Miami. Everyone on this team can run and finish. This starts with D, and I fully expect it to be better next season with Casey still around.

      Halfcourt is the big problem. I can't see any similarities that make me want to copy a team. I mean, I'd like to incorporate elements of a better offensive team...Indiana is not. Some thoughts here:

      -If JV improves his passing with the rest of his game, and the team gets another solid post-up big, I would love to see some Princeton-like elements incorporated, especially when Lowry is off the floor (but not necessarily exclusively). Admittedly we want better shooters than we have, but we have to hope for some improvement, and it's a system which is great for off-the-ball motion to free guys up for easy shots. Any offense where the backdoor pass is the bread and butter, with a roster having Gay, Fields, Ross and Demar, should make sense.

      -With Lowry on the floor....actually this is hard to gauge. The last month or so he played much better as a PG. As long as the amount of isos go down, I'm ok with a mix of things. The p'n'r and off-the-ball sets the team runs aren't bad. Toronto isn't an awful offensive team, production-wise. They just have an uninspired system.

      -I'd like to see some of those off-the-ball plays used to open up shots for the wings cut down a bit. I think they lead to isos by default. The team takes 15 seconds to run the play, it frees up some wing, but then if they don't take the shot right away, they ease into an iso with the shotclock winding down. These are horrible plays that need to be cut down, or modified so they don't take too long, and/or have immediate secondary options so the ball doesn't always freeze for an iso.

      -I'd like to see those plays diminished in favor of mixing in some Princeton like elements, and a lot more drive and kicks. Basically anything where the offense isn't initiated by an iso on the wing. I think the p'n'r the team runs is pretty good.

      -Disclaimer: isos are still going to happen a fair amount with Gay and Demar...just have to minimize them as bad plays. An offense heavy on p'n'r', drive and kick, and Princeton-like elements, I think will get everyone involved and maximize skill sets.

      Really, I felt like watching the team in the halfcourt was either a p'n'r, or one of those plays full of off-ball screens to free up a wing for a shot or other opportunity. Like 50/50. It makes things too easy on teh D. You could see the difference JV's emergence made as it forced the D to play him and worry about him, and suddenly everything was much more open on the wings. So yeah, putting the ball in the big's hands for some plays, where I would like Princeton style motion, and having more opportunities for Lowry to penetrate (both with and without screens) should really open things up for everybody.
      Last edited by white men can't jump; Thu Apr 25th, 2013, 09:19 AM.

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      • #18
        My first choice was Indy, but I'm just repeating what Casey said about having similar personnel. If I had to chose a team of my own I would say the Joe Johnson Atlanta Hawks. Our bigs will keep us in games with solid defense and it will be up to our wings to win or lose games for us. I suspect that means we would have a similar ceiling as that particular Hawks team did as well.

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        • #19
          Mediumcore wrote: View Post
          My first choice was Indy, but I'm just repeating what Casey said about having similar personnel. If I had to chose a team of my own I would say the Joe Johnson Atlanta Hawks. Our bigs will keep us in games with solid defense and it will be up to our wings to win or lose games for us. I suspect that means we would have a similar ceiling as that particular Hawks team did as well.
          What we ran this year was basically the Hawks offense, especially on a bad night, which was horrible btw. They won with transition scoring. If you forced them to play halfcourt, they struggled immensely. Frankly the Raps offense was even better this year, and had even more motion, than those Hawks teams had.

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          • #20
            I don't see how this team can emulate Indy. They have 2 low post scorers while we might have 1, if JV can develop more. David West's post up game is something the Raps can't come close to emulating. Our rosters are just too different for that to really work.

            Same with San Antonio. We don't have the post scoring or the outside shooting, which is basically most of what the Spurs do on offence (with Parker/Manu driving to kick out to the 3).
            Heir, Prince of Cambridge

            If you see KeonClark in the wasteland, please share your food and water with him.

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            • #21
              blackjitsu wrote: View Post
              Initially I was thinking a system similar to the Billups Pistons. What Coach Karl has done in Denver would be interesting to look at too.
              To me that is the best choice.

              What do the Raptors have for pieces?

              PG - drive and kick, slasher, decent 3pt shooter
              SG - slasher, finisher at rim, good midrange game
              SF - slasher, finisher at rim, decent 3pt shooter
              PF - high post jump shot, hustle down low, screen and roll guy
              C - low post developing, hustle guy, screen and roll guy

              What kind of offence best fits?

              Lots of ball & player movement, lots of screens

              '04 Pistons?

              Billups - Lowry - Billups is a better shooter but Lowry is a better driver
              Rip - Demar - both are great in the mid-range game, neither are great 3pt shooters (but Rip was better)
              Prince - Gay - both are athletic slashers who can hit the outside shot
              Sheed - Amir - both can hit the midrange jumper, while Sheed can step out further
              Ben - JV - Wallace did nothing on offence except hustle for rebounds, so less pressure for JV but can throw in some sets for him

              Our personnel fit. Demar is fantastic at hitting the midrange shot, so sending him around multiple screens from Amir, JV and Gay would get him very makable shots for him. Gay is much better than Prince offensively, but they have quite a few similarities. Amir has the 18 foot jump shot down and can be the stretch high post scorer like Sheed. JV is still developing, so why not give him an offence where he doesn't have to carry the load. Ben Wallace basically set screens, got out of the way, then crashed the glass. JV can do all that and more. It will give the team a chance to bring him along at whatever pace fits. Lowry and Billups have enough similarities for it to work.

              Sending Lowry, Demar and Gay around multiple screens, with multiple hand-offs will get someone open and will look a lot nicer than the ISO heavy crap we saw down the stretch.
              Heir, Prince of Cambridge

              If you see KeonClark in the wasteland, please share your food and water with him.

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              • #22
                Axel wrote: View Post
                I don't see how this team can emulate Indy. They have 2 low post scorers while we might have 1, if JV can develop more. David West's post up game is something the Raps can't come close to emulating. Our rosters are just too different for that to really work.

                Same with San Antonio. We don't have the post scoring or the outside shooting, which is basically most of what the Spurs do on offence (with Parker/Manu driving to kick out to the 3).
                Yeah, roster-wise the teams I see fitting the most, at least for starting 5s, are Brooklyn, and maybe Portland.

                Brooklyn is a good example. With Williams/Johnson/Wallace/Lopez, they match up nicely to Lowry/DeMar/Gay/JV. It's not a perfect comparison, but it does show the offense can and likely will be generated from the same positions, and using similar tools. It would make sense a bit with what I want. Carlesimo, after all, has been on both Adelman's and Pop's coaching staffs in his career. So he knows the Princeton offense, and how to generate offense from your PG spot (SA has run an offense heavy on p'n'r since at least the Avery Johnson days).

                **I also don't think the Pistons are a great example. They had balanced offense, but other than the Billups/Lowry comparison, and Rip/Demar (where only the midrange game is similar), the players are pretty damn different in skillset/talent level. I definitely think with the ball in Lowry's hands, it can resemble that Pistons offense at times, but it's not a system they can run all the time. But like I said, I don't think there's any model that is a 100% good fit with the Raptors.
                Last edited by white men can't jump; Thu Apr 25th, 2013, 09:49 AM.

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                • #23
                  isaacthompson wrote: View Post
                  Denver and their constant fastbreaking. We definitely have a team capable of doing that. We'd run teams out of the building, especially in the Eastern conference.
                  not quite sure the East has better defensive teams than the West. I would like to see more fastbreaks for easy buckets though the team is crazy talented, but I'd want the raptors to emulate Indiana, not to say mimicking Denver is a bad idea though.

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                  • #24
                    I'd take Miami's offensive package, if that package includes Lebron James and Dwyane Wade. I'll take Allen and Bosh while we're at it. And Battier too of course. They can keep Chalmers. Oh, I'll also take Spoelstra and Riley. Is the arena and climate also included in the package? I had to clear my car of ice this morning.. it's April 25th.

                    I'll take the cheerleaders as part of the package, if they are available.
                    your pal,
                    ebrian

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