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With Leiweke on board, what happens to Colangelo now?

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  • #76
    white men can't jump wrote: View Post
    No I got your point completely. I was just pointing out that it is just semantics on your part (again, especially since I said a "bit" redundant, not completely). Redundant doesn't mean their games are 100% the same, or that one doesn't bring more than the other. It means that certain things they bring are the same, good and bad, and that having those in excess could make it more difficult, or easier, at times for both to coexist on the floor. And I didn't feel like going into the details of their respective games, because I assumed anyone would know I'm talking about offensive aspects. In their cases, at this point, I'd lean toward more difficult. Could become easier if their shooting and guard skills get better.

    If I say "X" is redundant with "Y", X is still different than Y. It means that X has a quality/function that duplicates something which Y also possesses, therefore creating an excess. That excess can be either positive, as in form a strength in excess where redundancy actually helps effectiveness, like having 4 good 3 pt shooters out there with a post-up C. It can also be a negative, like having two wings with below average handles/passing, so that defenses know they can exploit that weakness by trying to force them to dribble or pass the ball. So if X and Y are both good shooters, and X is a bad passer but Y is not, there is still redundancy, just with specific scope, and regardless of which "direction" you want to point it in. Their shooting is redundant, their passing is not. Y is clearly the better player, but it does not influence the concept of redundancy at all. X is redundant with Y, or Y is redundant with X.

    So Rudy is redundant with DeMar and vice-versa, though I suppose I should apologize for not laying out the specific scope of the redundancy.
    I am not attempting to be antagonistic in case you think differently.

    I guess I'll agree to disagree. I don't look at Gay as redundant in any which way because he is not one dimensional. I do consider DeMar redundant because his strength lies in just one area that is shared with Gay.

    Hopefully both guys develop and grow their games this summer so that any talk of redundancy is a non-issue as they round out their games to become better all around players.

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    • #77
      Matt52 wrote: View Post
      ...Hopefully both guys develop and grow their games this summer so that any talk of redundancy is a non-issue as they round out their games to become better all around players.
      I saw a lot of games in which they really seemed to compliment each other. When they are both on the floor and Gay DOES move to the corner, they really stretch the defence. When Demar drives, Gay is good at offensive rebounds and is a reasonable passer (I don't think a lot of players were expecting his passes early after his trade, especially JV who everyone on the team seemed to ignore).

      I think Demar will start looking for Gay and JV next season. He really hasn't had a lot of options since the Bosh trade, when he kind of had to pick up the mantle of "number one offensive option."

      I expect more from this particular pairing next season. Be interesting to see what they look like coming out of training camp.

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      • #78
        Puffer wrote: View Post
        I saw a lot of games in which they really seemed to compliment each other. When they are both on the floor and Gay DOES move to the corner, they really stretch the defence. When Demar drives, Gay is good at offensive rebounds and is a reasonable passer (I don't think a lot of players were expecting his passes early after his trade, especially JV who everyone on the team seemed to ignore).

        I think Demar will start looking for Gay and JV next season. He really hasn't had a lot of options since the Bosh trade, when he kind of had to pick up the mantle of "number one offensive option."

        I expect more from this particular pairing next season. Be interesting to see what they look like coming out of training camp.
        And DeMar did show potential in rebounding and passing this year. Like most things though, consistency is the issue. I am not sure why he goes 25 games averaging over 4 assists per game and then end the season season averaging well under 2 over the last 16 games. It is the same with rebounding. He averaged 5 rebounds per game to start the first two months of the season but by the end he was under 3.

        If both DD and Gay can hit the corner threes with consistency (anything over 33%) it is really going to help the Raptors. If Gay can get back to 39%.... well lets just turn our focus to their defense and coaching.

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        • #79
          Matt52 wrote: View Post
          Hopefully both guys develop and grow their games this summer so that any talk of redundancy is a non-issue as they round out their games to become better all around players.
          If you look at Derozan's numbers, the only area where he improved was that he hit slightly more 'long twos' this year than last year. That's about it. So, given his %age of assisted baskets fell, you could say he created better for himself this year. So, yeah, he showed flashes of good stuff but his impact on the game wasn't noticably different than previous years. Why can't he sustain elevated rebounding and assist numbers? Cause he isn't good enough.

          Gay is in his, what, eighth year? Expecting him to improve or develop his game in any material way is like expecting Bargnani to do the same. Ain't gonna happen. I guess he could shoot the three at his career average but what you saw the last ~30 games is what you're getting.

          I'm not sure if they're redundant or not but I am watching the playoffs and am not very confident with this wing pairing going forward based on what I am seeing.

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          • #80
            slaw wrote: View Post
            If you look at Derozan's numbers, the only area where he improved was that he hit slightly more 'long twos' this year than last year. That's about it. So, given his %age of assisted baskets fell, you could say he created better for himself this year. So, yeah, he showed flashes of good stuff but his impact on the game wasn't noticably different than previous years. Why can't he sustain elevated rebounding and assist numbers? Cause he isn't good enough.

            Gay is in his, what, eighth year? Expecting him to improve or develop his game in any material way is like expecting Bargnani to do the same. Ain't gonna happen. I guess he could shoot the three at his career average but what you saw the last ~30 games is what you're getting.

            I'm not sure if they're redundant or not but I am watching the playoffs and am not very confident with this wing pairing going forward based on what I am seeing.
            This has been my point all along re: Rudy. I just don't see the gap in production between he and Derozan to justify paying him double the salary and expecting him to be the team's centrepiece. If they're redundant, then IMO Gay needs to be the one they get rid of.

            I get that Gay looks like he *should* be a keeper -- better rebounder, better defensive intuition, etc. But his production doesn't justify it, and he's no spring chicken in the league; expecting him to develop further at this point is pretty optimistic. Even if the shooting woes were an eye issue that's solved with medical attention, he still doesn't bring enough to the table, incl. 'intangibles' like leadership, etc. that would justify him being a franchise player. And whether you accept it or not, that's what Colangelo thinks of him (another reason it's great that there's another hand on the rudder now, lest BC try to extend Rudy this summer).

            From my perspective, at this point, the current roster is nowhere near good enough to think that a deep playoff run is even an option in the next 3-5 years. With that perspective, I think any move made over the next year should be about changing that situation. And that means not building around the wrong (overpriced, overvalued) players.

            I can accept Lowry; he's got skills that can help this team, and he's still cheap. However, he's not -- right now -- showing that he deserves an extension or to be the undisputed PG for the long term. If there isn't a significant uptick next season, he has to go. Toronto can't afford to pay him $10M/year on speculation.

            I can accept Derozan; he's overpaid for current production (see: speculation, as w/Lowry), but he's not drastically overpaid league-wide, and he still has potential to be tapped. Again, though, if he doesn't show significant improvement to the point where he makes Gay redundant, he's trade bait. Not as critical to get rid of as Gay, based purely on costs, but if one has to go... let the expensive one go.

            I can accept Rudy, but only if he gets all the way back to his career best production, and even then, an extension cannot jeopardize future financial flexibility for guys like Valanciunas or Ross (he may develop into something they need to pay to keep) or any other young talent Toronto can acquire through draft or trade over the next couple of seasons.

            The guys who they should be looking to keep, IMO, are not the exciting options; they're the meat-and-potatoes players who can be the "build" around whatever elite talent they can get, whether that's Val or someone else. I don't think it's Gay, I don't think it would be Boozer, it's definitely not Derozan. What I mean is, they don't have that elite talent yet, and they should be looking for it in 'younger'/'potential'/'cheaper' players, given their window for success.

            If I was an incoming GM, my starting point for thinking about this roster in 2013-14 would be:

            1. Keep: Amir, Fields, Gray. They're relatively cheap (Fields aside; he'll be cheap for what he brings if he can return to rookie form; if not, he falls into #3.

            2. Monitor progress: Demar, Ross. Add Demar to trade bait pile if he doesn't improve. Ross gets one more season to prove himself.

            3. Move: Gay if/when the right deal comes along. If he's fitting in, offer in the range of $36-40M over 3 years. Any more, let him walk, he's not worth it.

            4. Build: around Valanciunas. He's the only guy on the current roster that you can look at with any confidence today and say he's going to be an effective, borderline All-Star calibre starting player for many, many years.

            (this post probably best belongs in some other thread. sorry)
            Definition of Statistics: The science of producing unreliable facts from reliable figures.

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            • #81
              D Smith's spidey sense is tingling...

              http://thestar.blogs.com/raptors/

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              • #82
                Jclaw wrote: View Post
                D Smith's spidey sense is tingling...

                http://thestar.blogs.com/raptors/
                Is any of that news though? I saw that earlier and thought, "didn't even BC say at the end of season presser that the decision would be made in 2-3 weeks"? That lines up a decision for this week...I guess there's just nothing for him to write about.

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                • #83
                  Doug Smith is a fantastic stater of the obvious
                  @sweatpantsjer

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                  • #84
                    ceez wrote: View Post
                    Doug Smith is a fantastic stater of the obvious
                    Yup.

                    It has been known for a while that BC was suppose to give a presentation to MLSE board on, the date I read somewhere, May 7th.

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                    • #85
                      Jclaw wrote: View Post
                      D Smith's spidey sense is tingling...

                      http://thestar.blogs.com/raptors/
                      Damnit. That means nothing will happen for weeks now...

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                      • #86
                        Ryan Wolstat ‏@WolstatSun 23h
                        There's pretty much been a wall of silence surrounding Raptors re: fate of everybody, but expectation is decision comes soon after meeting

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                        • #87
                          So from what I understand this is just a routine end of season meeting today right?

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                          • #88
                            Rapstor4Life wrote: View Post
                            So from what I understand this is just a routine end of season meeting today right?
                            Nope. It's a meeting deciding the fate of Colangelo. I think. Eh.
                            Twitter: @ReubenJRD NBA, Raptors writer for Daily Hive Vancouver, Toronto.

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                            • #89
                              Rapstor4Life wrote: View Post
                              So from what I understand this is just a routine end of season meeting today right?
                              This meeting was essentially for BC to plead his case in receiving his Option year on his Contract from MLSE.
                              Nothing routine about this, in terms of implications.

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                              • #90
                                Michael Grange ‏@michaelgrange 3h

                                Again, today's meeting w/ Colangelo & MLSE board members is not make or break but part of normal post-season wrap for basketball operations
                                I dont know I read this and havent seen any other tweets.

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