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Jonas Valanciunas or Enes Kanter? (Poll added)

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  • #46
    Hugmenot wrote: View Post
    I would trade JV with no hesitation to acquire any of the three non-established stars below. Would you Soft Euro?

    John Wall
    DeMarcus Cousins
    Anthony Davis

    I like JV but I don't see the superstar in him.
    The thing is, every one of those 3 players on your list has a much higher value than JV so the question now becomes would you be willing to give up something like JV+Amir+1stRounder+Ross for either of those guys + scrubs + bad/expiring contracts.

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    • #47
      NoBan wrote: View Post
      I dare you to name 5 players you would trade JV to acquire.
      Ok, I'll do that. Let me first explain the reasons why I don't pick certain players, I got four:

      1. Age. Players like Nowitzki, Parker and even someone like Bosh are all no's for me. There are a lot of players in this age category which are better, and maybe even more talented, than Valanciunas. But our team won't be an instant contender with any of those players and they are all at the top of or over their prime. I want this to be a longterm strategy.

      2. Scarcity of position. You hear all the time that the league is going small. In my opinion this is because of the scarcity of big man who can keep up with the smaller guys (and Lebron who can muscle up with most big guys). I don't think it's a good idea to do the same as the rest of the league and go small as well, I'd rather do the opposite and this might be possible with Valanciunas. There is a flood of good point guards right now and I wouldn't trade Valanciunas for a point guard who is only marginally better (hard to compare across positions, but nevertheless) because point guards are much easier to obtain. There are much more people who are 6 foot and a bit than people who are 7 foot; the talent pool is much bigger.

      3. Injury-history. I would hesitate to trade Valanciunas for guys like Deron Williams, Chris Paul, Rose, etc. All very good players, but all have a recent (or current) history of injuries.

      4. Familiarity. This is probably the one you disagree with the most. But the fans have invested themselves in Valanciunas, or at least I have, and I'd like to see how he develops. So I won't even trade him for Anthony Davis; I don't think the difference in ceiling is big enough (this not everyone might agree with as well).

      If you look at the top 30 or 50 players on espn's list, most of those players are either subject to nr. 1 or 3, often in combination with 2: Howard, Paul, Rose, Bryant, Love, Wade, Westbrook, Deron Williams, Nowitzki, Rondo, Bynum, Pau Gasol, etc. Only a few aren't at least either old (this includes players who are now at the peak of their prime, e.g. Carmelo) or with a history of injuries.

      5 players:
      1. Lebron
      2. Durant

      That's it. Those are my five players.

      On the fence: Howard, Love, Griffin, Marc Gasol

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      • #48
        Hugmenot wrote: View Post
        I would trade JV with no hesitation to acquire any of the three non-established stars below. Would you Soft Euro?

        John Wall
        DeMarcus Cousins
        Anthony Davis

        I like JV but I don't see the superstar in him.
        He's not superstar but he's the only bright spot/best prospect in the team. That's sad if you are a Raptors fan, but at the same time at least these fans has something positive, so then NoBan comes and try to bash everyone who's high expectations for the kid. Of course he's not Dwight Howard or Kevin Garnet, but the fact that I wouldn't trade him for Bosh or Dirk just proves the fact that Im not homer, but that those guys has more disadvantages than advantages compared to JV.
        Official Pope of the Raptors sponsored by MLSE.

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        • #49
          omgsomuchpotential wrote: View Post
          The thing is, every one of those 3 players on your list has a much higher value than JV
          I agree with you but I am far from certain this opinion is shared by the majority here.

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          • #50
            Hugmenot wrote: View Post
            I would trade JV with no hesitation to acquire any of the three non-established stars below. Would you Soft Euro?

            John Wall
            DeMarcus Cousins
            Anthony Davis

            I like JV but I don't see the superstar in him.
            John Wall for me has only shown superstar after the allstar break this year. He has not shown maturity or consistency before and definitely not on the defensive end. Scarcity of position would make me hesitate.

            DeMarcus Cousins never. This year I saw a game, where he was his whining self. I think it was against Phoenix. They were blowing Phoenix out and Cousins was fouled and he got the foul call. He was whining and looked utterly dejected, while they were blowing Phoenix out! It was amazing to see; looking at his attitude, you'd think he was fouled hard and didn't get the call for the umpteenth time and they were losing big. It will take years for him to become a professional player, if ever. I hope for him that he does, and the league should be scared. He has top 3-5 talent.

            Anthony Davis > see my post.

            I don't think Valanciunas will be a superstar as well, few centers are. I see him as a B+ player on both sides of the court (in the future of course). That will be enough to be one of the best centers in the league. And I like the prospect of him being able to step out and hit long jumpers (based on his ft% and the fact that he can catch high and release without bringing the ball down (unlike Amir)). That's going to be very valuable in this nba.

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            • #51
              And don't forget we're about as sure as can be that we can keep Valanciunas at least for another 7 (or so?) years.

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              • #52
                Soft Euro wrote: View Post
                5 players:
                1. Lebron
                2. Durant

                That's it. Those are my five players.
                Your rose-colored glasses are so thick that they prevent you from seeing reality!

                I am just jesting; I am perfectly fine with you liking a player that much.

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                • #53
                  Hugmenot wrote: View Post
                  Your rose-colored glasses are so thick that they prevent you from seeing reality!

                  I am just jesting; I am perfectly fine with you liking a player that much.
                  As I said, I agree that there are many better players; that doesn't mean you have to trade for them...

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                  • #54
                    NoBan wrote: View Post
                    I dare you to name 5 players you would trade JV to acquire.
                    See this is interesting, because I don't consider myself to be a massive homer, and I generally look at things fairly objectively ... and even I would be hard pressed to name 5 players I'd trade JV for.

                    Just because he won't be a Superstar, doesn't mean anything. Do you consider Al Horford a 'Superstar'? Absolutely not.
                    But if JV turns into anything like Horford, then I'd be hard pressed to trade him for anyone not being considered for MVP. Why you ask? Because none of those players will be a skilled two-way 7-foot Center. One of the hardest commodities to come by in the NBA.

                    If he is anything like a lot of us think he will be in 5 years (which the evidence points to being pretty good odds in favour), then a lot of these teams are going to be wishing they traded their Stars for Jonas, and not the other way around.
                    Last edited by Joey; Thu May 2nd, 2013, 03:21 PM.

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                    • #55
                      joey_hesketh wrote: View Post
                      See this is interesting, because I don't consider myself to be a massive homer, and I generally look at things fairly objectively ... and even I would be hard pressed to name 5 players I'd trade JV for.

                      Just because he won't be a Superstar, doesn't mean anything. Do you consider Al Horford a 'Superstar'? Absolutely not.
                      But if JV turns into anything like Horford, then I'd be hard pressed to trade him for anyone not being considered for MVP. Why you ask? Because none of those players will be a skilled two-way 7-foot Center. One of the hardest commodities to come by in the NBA.

                      If he is anything like a lot of us think he will be in 5 years (which the evidence points to being pretty good odds in favour), then a lot of these teams are going to be wishing they traded their Stars for Jonas, and not the other way around.
                      I agree.

                      I can't imagine putting any ceiling on a 20 year old 7 footer who not only has shown the ability to be a starting NBA player but also comes from a country where basketball is a religion AND is a genuinely likeable person.

                      I am only 6'7"/6'8" but when I think back to what I could do physically at 20 years old versus 25 it is night and day.

                      This is another reason I would not be opposed to tearing down what the Raptors have for the next 2 seasons if they cannot get a young impact player to compliment the core currently in place (I refer to JV/Fields/Amir/Gay/Lowry as the core and the wet dream I have of late is Kevin Love which is 100% CRF's fault - thanks man but I digress).

                      JV is a guy you can build around and the Raps will have him for up to another 8 seasons if they wish (3 more year rookie deal and 5 year extension) at which point he will be just a year and a half older than Roy Hibbert is NOW.

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                      • #56
                        I might do a JV for Kyrie or Lillard trade if it was offered. Those two are franchise players without a doubt. I think JV can be really good, but can he be Tim Duncan, KG, Dwight Howard good? Should we be comparing JV to Joakim Noah instead, in which case it would be like saying would you trade Noah for Kyrie, Lillard, Curry type player?

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                        • #57
                          Matt52 wrote: View Post
                          I agree.

                          I can't imagine putting any ceiling on a 20 year old 7 footer who not only has shown the ability to be a starting NBA player but also comes from a country where basketball is a religion AND is a genuinely likeable person.

                          I am only 6'7"/6'8" but when I think back to what I could do physically at 20 years old versus 25 it is night and day.

                          This is another reason I would not be opposed to tearing down what the Raptors have for the next 2 seasons if they cannot get a young impact player to compliment the core currently in place (I refer to JV/Fields/Amir/Gay/Lowry as the core and the wet dream I have of late is Kevin Love which is 100% CRF's fault - thanks man but I digress).

                          JV is a guy you can build around and the Raps will have him for up to another 8 seasons if they wish (3 more year rookie deal and 5 year extension) at which point he will be just a year and a half older than Roy Hibbert is NOW.
                          I think whitemencantjump deserves some of the credit/blame! I've been worried lately you may have caught some of my #TradeDeRozanitis too

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                          • #58
                            CalgaryRapsFan wrote: View Post
                            I think whitemencantjump deserves some of the credit/blame! I've been worried lately you may have caught some of my #TradeDeRozanitis too
                            I was starting to think it might be possible but with Kahn traded, who knows.... like anyone knew before.

                            I don't think I am thinking rationally that the Raptors could get Love but I just want it so bad the more I think about it.

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                            • #59
                              CalgaryRapsFan wrote: View Post
                              I think whitemencantjump deserves some of the credit/blame! I've been worried lately you may have caught some of my #TradeDeRozanitis too
                              I do not seek credit, I just seek a strategic approach with DeMar. If he's going to be moved, it better be a move that bumps the team's ceiling up a notch. I don't think Millsap does that. Don't get me wrong, there's a good chance it'd give better roster balance and thus net some more wins. THat said, if the Raps are a 7-8 seed as built if things go pretty well, Millsap makes them what, 5-6 at best? Not much of a bump if you ask me. 5-8 are all low playoff seeds.

                              DeMar should try to be used in the kind of deal that would at least bump them into top 3-4 in the conference, and hopeful, if not legitimate contender. I think Love is a good example of such a deal partly because, even if it's just speculation, it seems like a potential option given possible friction in Minny, and a good fit for DeMar. I've also said that Rondo is another name I'd keep an eye on given the uncertainty of Boston's future...just wait for a team to decide to make a big change. Just because DeMar is our most tradable asset, doesn't mean we need to rush to trade him.

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                              • #60
                                white men can't jump wrote: View Post
                                I do not seek credit, I just seek a strategic approach with DeMar. If he's going to be moved, it better be a move that bumps the team's ceiling up a notch. I don't think Millsap does that. Don't get me wrong, there's a good chance it'd give better roster balance and thus net some more wins. THat said, if the Raps are a 7-8 seed as built if things go pretty well, Millsap makes them what, 5-6 at best? Not much of a bump if you ask me. 5-8 are all low playoff seeds.

                                DeMar should try to be used in the kind of deal that would at least bump them into top 3-4 in the conference, and hopeful, if not legitimate contender. I think Love is a good example of such a deal partly because, even if it's just speculation, it seems like a potential option given possible friction in Minny, and a good fit for DeMar. I've also said that Rondo is another name I'd keep an eye on given the uncertainty of Boston's future...just wait for a team to decide to make a big change. Just because DeMar is our most tradable asset, doesn't mean we need to rush to trade him.
                                I really want to see how Demar and Rudy and JV are used in a team run by Lowry for at least half a season before any moves are made. Casey and the stats crew and assistants have four months to spend looking over tape of the last half of the season to figure out how these guys can best be used. Hard to create on the fly during the season, but now they can get strategic. Personally I think that is a real good base to operate from. Up to BC to do something with Bargs to help the team.

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