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  • #31
    Fully wrote: View Post
    To be fair though, the Rivers quote on DD was a direct response to a lob ball question about him from a Toronto media member. Did you really expect Doc to publicly trash him? You could have asked Rivers about Solomon Alabi when he was here and he would have paid him lip service too.

    It's a nice quote, and I do think that DeRozan has improved a lot in recent seasons even if the advanced metrics don't necessarily reflect that. However the Rivers quote should not be the final and definitive say on DeRozan's value. That's silly.
    It's true it was an easy question....

    But to flip things around...If Zach Lowe went to Rivers and asked him "do you think DeMar DeRozan will never be a good shooter because of his progress so far?", Doc's answer would be something like "Zach, that's crazy, guys always have a chance to get better. DeMar seems like a good player, and if he puts the work in, which it seems he does, I'm sure he'll have a good chance at improving his shot." Yeah, he'd probably say something like chance, because Doc is smart, and he knows that things could go either way....But that's the point: things could go either way. DeMar is still too young to say he's a finished product.

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    • #32
      white men can't jump wrote: View Post
      It's true it was an easy question....

      But to flip things around...If Zach Lowe went to Rivers and asked him "do you think DeMar DeRozan will never be a good shooter because of his progress so far?", Doc's answer would be something like "Zach, that's crazy, guys always have a chance to get better. DeMar seems like a good player, and if he puts the work in, which it seems he does, I'm sure he'll have a good chance at improving his shot." Yeah, he'd probably say something like chance, because Doc is smart, and he knows that things could go either way....But that's the point: things could go either way. DeMar is still too young to say he's a finished product.
      To be honest, I wasn't trying to interject myself in the actual Derozan debate. I like the guy personally and don't understand a lot of the vitriole thrown his way but I don't think you're going to be a very good team if he's your second option either. But you're right, he's still young enough that you can't call him a finished product regardless of where you stand on him.

      I was really just trying to give a little objectivity to the discussion, and I thought it was a little silly that you guys seemed to be waving this one response from Rivers in the air, with your fingers in your ears refusing to listen to other opinions on DD. It was a lob ball question from the media and a diplomatic answer from Doc. It doesn't deserve that much weight in my opinion.

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      • #33
        White men cant jump, your point about his work ethic is where our opinions on him begin to converge. I had my doubts prior to this season because of his mixed results. But his improved jumper from mid-range, consistent foul shooting, and decent ability to go to the rack both ways suggest that work ethic is both in place and beginning to pay dividends. I'm more skeptical about his value at his new salary level than you (particularly because we had no reason to extend when we did), but we're getting closer to the same page here.

        hesketh, when i said "this post" i was referring to my reply only. Seems to me your still stuck on debating whom the more relevant source of info is rather than your actual obersavation of Demar's performance, growth potential, and overall value. The "agree to disagree" offering is reserved for when you've run out of points but still refuse to move off a stance. But, something tells me that you're on a similar page to the common ground White Men Cant Jump and I found in my previous paragraph.

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        • #34
          Fully wrote: View Post
          To be honest, I wasn't trying to interject myself in the actual Derozan debate. I like the guy personally and don't understand a lot of the vitriole thrown his way but I don't think you're going to be a very good team if he's your second option either. But you're right, he's still young enough that you can't call him a finished product regardless of where you stand on him.

          I was really just trying to give a little objectivity to the discussion, and I thought it was a little silly that you guys seemed to be waving this one response from Rivers in the air, with your fingers in your ears refusing to listen to other opinions on DD. It was a lob ball question from the media and a diplomatic answer from Doc. It doesn't deserve that much weight in my opinion.
          Ok, I was clearly throwing a little exaggeration about how all-important Doc's quotes should be, but he is a very legit source of an opinion, even given a lob from the reporter.

          It's also partly because Doc's quote is very apt. DeMar doesn't get a lot of attention outside Toronto, so there really isn't a lot of talk about him. If you watch Raptors games though, and maybe have League Pass like I do, then you also probably notice how frequently DeMar is talkd about by other teams' broadcast crews...and I mean beyond the general talking points. DeMar, JV and Amir were basically the only players who got positive attention on a consistent basis...and every once in a while AA when he'd have a crazy game and people were clearly like "who the fuck is this guy?"

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          • #35
            NoBan wrote: View Post
            hesketh, you arent going to win an argument by saying that Zach Lowe doesn't know shit about basketball.

            I was very down on Demar going into the year and I am slightly encouraged at the end of it. He's a lot more consistent with his jumper. Unfortunately, he's worked very hard to develop the most inefficient shot in basketball. Here's hoping he can extend that range a few more feet (I suspect that's the plan). You've gotta love his ability to get to the line, and he's a more aware defender than this time last year. All good signs. But at the end of the day he's still an inefficient offensive player and an irresponsible defender. He's not worth the money he's due

            If he were still on a rookie deal, he'd be a nice value piece. But now he's making roughly Lawson/Curry money. He's gotta 1) learn where to aggressively help on D; 2) extend his range beyond the 3 pt arc; 3) increase is BBIQ to the point that he's making lightning quick reads to keep the ball moving at a step ahead of the defense. Smooth, laser-like passes; cutting at the right time with no hesitation; and not disappearing for large stretches. Dude's got a long way to go before he's a value piece at almost $10 mil.

            But back to the original point of this post - Any time youre dismissing Zach Lowe's analysis as inaccurate or inconsequential, youre very likely losing an argument.
            Demar also needs to contining driving the lane. If he can hit jumper great but don't fall so in love with it that you forget to drive the lane when the opportunity presents itself.

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            • #36
              NoBan wrote: View Post
              White men cant jump, your point about his work ethic is where our opinions on him begin to converge. I had my doubts prior to this season because of his mixed results. But his improved jumper from mid-range, consistent foul shooting, and decent ability to go to the rack both ways suggest that work ethic is both in place and beginning to pay dividends. I'm more skeptical about his value at his new salary level than you (particularly because we had no reason to extend when we did), but we're getting closer to the same page here.

              hesketh, when i said "this post" i was referring to my reply only. Seems to me your still stuck on debating whom the more relevant source of info is rather than your actual obersavation of Demar's performance, growth potential, and overall value. The "agree to disagree" offering is reserved for when you've run out of points but still refuse to move off a stance. But, something tells me that you're on a similar page to the common ground White Men Cant Jump and I found in my previous paragraph.
              This is really the only problem with what happened, and somewhat agree with you. I don't think any team would've pegged DeMar for much more than what his extension is....maybe 10 or 11 million, tops, given his youth and potential for further growth. So if management was willing to settle at 9.5 million, and maybe was hoping to get an 8 or 8.5 mil per season type deal, I might have stayed firm at those "hoped" numbers, and gambled that no team would offer him more than 9 or 10 in the offseason...and possibly end up signing him for less (I still think he'd go for at least around 7.5 or 8 million)

              The downside of waiting is not just risking the number you want, though. Maybe if he doesn't like his offers, he also is unwilling to sign for 4 years at the end of the season. Short deals can seem attractive, but if his value grows, it leads to another decision on whether to pay him more or trade him. This could end up with the team paying him more overall (giving in to his demands), or with the team being forced into a trade scenario they don't really want (again giving into his demands). I think his current deal protects the team the most in all scenarios. If he grows it's very good value, and if he doesn't, it's still fair enough that he should be a good piece in a helpful trade, if that's what the team decides to, and in this scenario, they'd likely be able to decide that on their terms instead of his.

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              • #37
                Ok, first off, Zach Lowe is the ultimate x's and o's blogger out there. I respect his opinion more that any writer out there. That being said, I think his mind would change slightly if he could rewrite that article now. Demar's stats have improved across the board (ok slightly) from a year ago, but it shows a continual improvement.

                Also, I don't know how much validity a Doc Rivers post game quote is. He's not going to go off on a player or anything.

                So in conclusion, both your quotes suck.
                Eh follow my TWITTER!

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                • #38
                  We're all Raptors fans here boys, no need to get all worked up.
                  "Masai WILL win us a championship"
                  - Tim Leiweke

                  Ujiri: "One thing I can say for sure is that we will not be stuck in the middle."

                  Reporter: "How can you say that?"

                  Ujiri: "Because I can say that."

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    NoBan wrote: View Post
                    Seems to me your still stuck on debating whom the more relevant source of info is rather than your actual obersavation of Demar's performance, growth potential, and overall value.
                    I'm not stuck on anything. If anyone knows me around here, they know how much I think of Demar's game, his value, his character & his work ethic; among other things. Only one of those can be backed up by stats, but that doesn't by any means, imply it is the only one to consider when determining a players worth to the team.

                    Among many things, Demar has improved his efficiency. And that's the key to his game going to the next level in my opinion.
                    In the final 10 games of the Season, a stretch where the Raptors went 7-3, Demar Derozan averaged 22.1ppg on 52% shooting, & 50% from 3(9-18). Small sample, fine. But you can stretch that back to the All-Star break, and see the exact same trends.
                    He's getting better every week. And I have no fears about Demars game continuing to improve in ALL facets. Therefore, I think its no surprise that I take exception to someone saying "he's not very good". I think that's just silly. Perhaps compared to Steph Curry, ya fine. I concede. But I didn't think that was ever the debate.


                    NoBan wrote:
                    The "agree to disagree" offering is reserved for when you've run out of points but still refuse to move off a stance.
                    Actually, I'm pretty sure its reserved for when I can't handle anymore pointless back and forth that will result in no ones opinion being changed.
                    Last edited by Joey; Tue May 7th, 2013, 06:49 PM.

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                    • #40
                      What does the NBA think of Demar? He's a part of the US national basketball system! One of 30 or so NBA players in that system. There's your answer. He's not a star. But to say he is bad, or mediocre is ridiculous. He was drafted 9th. What do you expect from the man? The vitriol and nonsense thrown at him on these boards is silly.

                      Bargnani was drafted first. LA, Gay and others developed faster than him but some of the same people dumping on Demar were telling us that he still had a chance to reach his potential. Same people who thought giving Bargs an insane contract for no reason was okay. Same people who deep in their hearts think when he is moved he'll play better on another team...ENOUGH!

                      Demar, a player destined to be a sidekick, who makes sidekick money (9 mill is not star money) is better than your hero. Deal with it. It's not Demar's fault that Curry is underpaid (Curry can blame his ankles). This summer watch what type of money OJ Mayo gets -- and he had a far worse season.

                      Back to the original point: GSW were a much better team than the Raptors but they kept a number of their players sidelined to get the record they got and the lottery pick. Should the Raps have done the same for Lillard or Barnes? Why not? But if they were still planning to sell Bargnani as a star, how would the past season have been any different?

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                      • #41
                        Also, positions really need to be taken into account....

                        No one was ever debating whether DeMar is as good or valuable as Curry or Lawson, just that he's far from a bad player, and that it's not fair to say yet that he isn't worth his contract. He could even be good value in the end. The fact that his deal is not too far from theirs is just evidence that they got screwed, not a reason to knock him. This is partly because they play PG, a deep position where it's hard for guys to get max contracts.

                        There have got to be tons of wings making contracts they don't deserve if compared to such PGs (Holiday should be in this discussion too). Off the top of my head, Nic Batum is a good example. His contract is about 11.5 million per season. It would be hard for anyone to argue that is unfair, especially compared to other guys who play SF or SG. He shouldn't be paid like the elite SFs, the deeper of the wing positions. And he should be paid more than a guy like Demar, or Redick, or his own teammate Matthews. But his deal is also in the same ballpark as Holiday, Curry, Lawson...actually higher than the first 2 guys. Now that doesn't seem right to me at all, but it is what it is. It just shows how hard it is to compare value across positions.

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Fact # 1: We have Brian Colangelo as GM.
                          Fact # 2: They don't.
                          “The saving of our world from pending doom will come, not through the complacent adjustment of the conforming majority, but through the creative maladjustment of a nonconforming minority.” - Martin Luther King

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                          • #43
                            I've been down on DeRozan in the past due to his consistency in facets of the game other than scoring. If he can up his rebounds (i.e. more possessions for the team), up his assists (i.e. more passing/finding open people), and defense (i.e. become more productive than his opponent) then I will love everything about the guy.

                            At this point in time though he does not do those things consistently and after 4 years in the league I am not optimistic he consistently will.

                            One thing I do give him credit for this year is upping his win share, PoP, and WPper48. He is approaching average in these categories after a few years of well below.

                            Final thing on DeMar: he needs a coach to tell him cut down on the 16-23 footers while attacking the rim more and taking more 3's. No need to go in to the math as it is pretty basic but DeMar shooting 32% from 3 is MUCH MUCH MUCH better than his 41% from 16-23 feet.

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                            • #44
                              I thought about this on the way home and this morning after reading all the responses I've that there's no point in bringing up the stats. DeRozan's abilities and inabilities have been well documented on this board so I don't see the point of repeating everything.

                              A couple points --

                              (1) I'm no expert on this, but don't know who is a more credible source than Zach Lowe and friends. My view is that people at Grantland are far more credible because they tell the truth. As someone else pointed out, other coaches will never actually say anything bad about another player. Especially Doc Rivers.. he's as classy as classy gets. I'm pretty sure if you took him aside off the record he'd still insist his son had a great year. He's just that kind of guy. Sports journalists rarely criticize players too, because they need to maintain their ability to access them and they have some responsibilities about not offering too much personal opinion or showing bias. So really, the most credible source to me is someone like Zach Lowe, who follows the sport religiously and writes (with others) what I consider one of the few truthful blogs out there. It's not like we're talking about a Bleacher report.

                              And if you really wanted to nitpick, read between the lines at what Doc Rivers DIDN'T say. He didn't say DeRozan defends well, or scores well. He didn't say DeRozan is a great player either. He simply said he defends and shoots and is a complete player. And that he works hard. By Doc Rivers' definition of a complete player, there are no incomplete players on the Raptors. Even if Bargnani is poor at it and does it all wrong, he still "defends".

                              (2) I never said DeRozan sucked. I said he wasn't very good, and I still don't think he deserves his contract extension. Call me crazy, but I think you have to be very good to be gifted a 4 year contract worth $38M. Even if two years down the road DeRozan is earning every penny, we're still looking at a year or two of wasted money and wasted flexibility. I'm all about cap flexibility and keeping options open, and offering a guy money that he *might* be worth in a couple of years is how you run franchises into the ground.

                              This is by no means DeRozan's fault. Very rarely will you find me posting negative things about a player (other than Bargnani) without making some kind of reference of whose fault it is (Colangelo). The way to succeed in the NBA is to, whenever possible, acquire and sign players with talent for less than they're worth. With DeMar's contract, we did the opposite. That's what separates and prevents us from being a good team.
                              your pal,
                              ebrian

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                              • #45
                                The points regarding long shots that MAtt52 made above can be extended to a brief team comparison between the Warriors and Raps:

                                In terms of % of total shots taken, TOR - 25.3 @ 16-23 ft and 26.7 from 3pt
                                GSW - 26.7 @ 16-23 ft and 25.1 from 3pt
                                League avg - 23.4 @ 16-23 ft and 25.2 from 3pt

                                In terms of shooting percentages, TOR - 36.2 @ 16-23 ft and 51 (eFG%) from 3pt
                                GSW - 40.3 @ 16-23 ft and 60 (eFG%) from 3pt
                                League avg - 38.3 @ 16-23 ft and 53.8 (eFG%) from 3pt

                                The Raps are above average takers from distance, but below average makers from distance. The Warriors, however, are above average makers, while being above average takers from 16-23 ft and just about average from 3pt range. The Warriors are a much better distance shooting team. The Raps, clearly, weren't playing to their strengths, and took too many shots from areas they aren't very good at.

                                Lets compare DD and RG (our main shooters, unfortunately) with Curry and Thompson, whom I think are the main shooters for GSW. I have also separated RG w/Memphis from RG w/Toronto.

                                DeRozan, 40% FG from 16-23ft and 36.8 eFG% from 3pt range
                                Gay (TOR), 30% FG from 16-23ft and 36.6 eFG% from 3pt range
                                Gay (MEM), 35% FG from 16-23ft and 46.5 eFG% from 3pt range
                                Curry, 44% FG from 16-23ft and 67.8 eFG% from 3pt range
                                Thompson, 41% FG from 16-23ft and 59.6 eFG% from 3pt range

                                Clearly, TOR's jump shooting offense is trumped by GSW's jump shooting offense. No surprise here. The Warriors have great pure shooters in the roles of jump shooters, while the Raptors have poor jump shooters in those roles.

                                So, this is perhaps one reason (of many) to explain why the Warriors have been much more successful than the Raps in just one season. However, this is certainly far from an in depth analysis, and a close examination of their respective offensive styles would be necessary before any concrete conclusions can be made. Perhaps the Warriors play a style that is more condusive to getting open distance shots compared to the Raps. Maybe they have a better inside/outside game or better ball movement that gets guys open looks. I'm not sure, but I do know from watching the Raptors this season that they did very little to get guys open and that many of their distance shots were contested.

                                Looking at the Gay stats above, there is a significant drop off in his distance shooting %'s from Memphis to Toronto (-5% from 16-23ft, and -10% in eFG from 3pt range). That is quite a difference in my opinion, and may be attributable to a difference in Rudy's role and style of play between the two teams. Memphis is a powerhouse up front and this may have helped Rudy get better looks from distance.

                                So, now I understand why some people on here got a hard on for a post-up PF, well, moreso than I was before. I'm still not convinced because I think JV can fill the role of go to guy in the post. I know he is young, but I still want to see him get the ball consistently down low, and try and develop him as much as possible before he gets an extension. I still consider this team to be a project, not quite a rebuild, so I am not anxious to add another fat contract and a guy that will demand the ball. I think Amir is a great pairing with JV, but that of course will depend on JV becoming a good low post player. Clearly, an inside-outside game would benefit the Raptors and help with the outside shooting. Of course, I would never expect DD and RG to shoot like Curry and Thompson, but JV getting the ball consistently in the post should help them get more open looks, and hopefully, they would knock down more of those shots.

                                I don't think it is fair to crap on Demar. It would be hard to expect him to shoot better given the way the Raps play offense and the lack of a low-post dominant big man that can draw double teams. The same could be said of Rudy. And, all the reasons we may not be satisfied with Demar are reasons we could not be satisifed with Rudy, only in Rudy's case they are even more exaggerated because he is arguably a more talented player with more offensive weapons and a much bigger contract.

                                Furthermore, in the absense of a great inside-outside game that can draw double teams and provide the opportunity to move the ball around the court, you are basically left with the drive and kick to generate open looks. I didn't see much of that either this season. Lowry is the best option, but he was effectively neutered in this regard early on. If Lowry isn't gonna be given the green light to be aggressive and take the ball to the basket, the double teams wont come and the open looks wont be available.

                                I don't think RG and DD will ever be great shooters, but they could certainly be much better than they have shown this season in the right system. I doubt Curry and Thompson would have shot like they did this year had they been on this Raptors club.

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