Rebuild or Re-tool? (thread merge in post #358)

[Axel]

At this point I don't think it's going to matter if we actively re-tool or rebuild, we are likely a lottery team next season anyway.

[ebrian]

I've been reading all the posts but not posting because I think we were having more constructive discussions on this over a month ago (~50 pages ago?), and that was when BC was still GM. Back then we didn't have any of the "I just want to win some games" people joining in.

I think we should add a tagline to each poster so we have an idea of where they're coming from. It's kind of a waste of time to have one guy who wants to see the team build a winning franchise debate with a guy who is just happy to watch an exciting team, on the merits of rebuilding vs retooling.

[Craiger]

Cool story bro, didn't know that your name was Matt, Craiger.

1. I never posted my opinion, I was merely pointing out that blaming management was not a legit point to dissuade his argument.

Not my opinion, but if we're bringing up people like Warren Buffet-- look at how many times Buffet "wins" his investments (For instance grabbing GE on the cheap, reorganizing them and coming out smelling like roses). Buffet "wins" these kinds of investments regularly. Does Buffets wins make it impossible for other less skilled talents to have investment success?

Now look how few NBA managers win titles. There are 4 maybe 5 active GM/Presidents who've won titles. Then throw out outlying characters like Dumars who have no right being called good. I guess you could throw in GMs like Bird who are consistently close as well.

The criteria is titles, or the ability to create championship caliber teams. Winning a draft means nothing. There is zero talent in winning a lottery. The skill is in developing talent, surrounding talent, identifying who to keep and who to let go, knowing when to sell high and when to hold on to a falling talent, scouting for hidden gems... Just like the financial world, there are more bad GMs/Presidents than talented ones, however, there are outliers like Dumars, the Mavs staff, Ainge, etc. Even mediocre managers can learn to be patient, spot opportunities, and have moments of brilliance.

As far as if talent stays, again, I didn't say anything so I have no clue where you THINK I was coming from. Has nothing to do with what I was saying-- if the draft pick wants money they stay for a portion of the 2nd contract; if they want to win they don't. I've talked about the difficulty in diving before in other threads...it takes years of preparation to dive and recover properly. Most managers are incapable of doing this, however, who's not to say that a bad GM learns from their mistakes.

What do you do? Again I've made my suggestions in multiple threads. With the current team's construction the Raptors would be better to take the long route, try to make the playoffs multiple years, create value for their current assets and build a reputation as a team that values playing in the playoffs. Use that reputation to cherry pick talented free agents from bad teams who don't make playoffs, and slowly trade certain players when their value is at its height. Yes, this strategy is slow, not glamorous, and takes years to see the rewards beyond 1st round playoff wins...

Why no to diving? Personal opinion. Both are legit strategies but one shows patience outwardly while another creates a temporary splash that appeases the public but depends on your draft pick being as patient as the GM. How many years did Dirk have to wait for a team to be built around him? To me that seems more likely than Shaq running to Wade. In the modern NBA are any "stars" that patient?

Just because people disagree with diving doesn't mean they are huddled in a corner, and have quit on sports. What a hilarious illogical reach.

Pretty sure you're incorrectly using the word fallacy. I am confident that both rationale are extremely sound. The point of debate is that there are multiple legitimate stances. Just because people disagree with you does not make their opinion less thought out. Since the only language in use on this thread is colloquial English I implore you to use the words you choose correctly.

I guess this is the result of sticking my nose inside the bastions walls.

Bold #1 - the hilarious illogical reach is coming to the conclusion that "people who disagree with diving are huddled in the corner and have to quit on sports" from what I said. Much like most of the paragraphs above it.

Bold #2 - if you came to the conclusion that I was somehow saying because your opinion was different its less thought out, you are either completely missing the point or are being intentionally ignorant (see bold #1). How you form and argument is just as important as what you argue, no matter what form of language you use.

And yes fallacy was the right word.

[LBF]

We need to keep Gay..he is over-paid, yes. But, we need him.

[mcHAPPY]

First off, free agents often sign with marginal teams. I have no idea why Carl Landry decided to go back to Sacramento, but he did. The point is: stop being a marginal team. MLSE has publicly signalled willingness to go into the tax for a serious contending team and that matters; we're a very large market, the income tax situation for players is massively improved from the 1990s (when it was awful), and after twenty years, players love being here and everybody knows Toronto is a fun place to live with extremely dedicated fans (CB4 didn't leave because he didn't like the city; he left because he wanted to play with his friends on a contender, rather than be the big fish in an inept pond).

We've already taken the first important step by getting quality management pieces in place. Our management has been a league joke for over a decade, and nobody wants to sign with a team run by idiots. Leiweke and Ujiri were key steps to getting front office credibility, because serious players aren't going to sign with a team that overpays Landry Fields in the hopes of somehow overpaying a way-beyond-his-prime Steve Nash.

But to answer your question: no. I agree with you that Rudy would not sign here as a free agent, had he had the opportunity, because free agents chase money and talent, and we only have one of those.

Two points on the bold:

1) Sacramento has new ownership, management, and coaches. I don't think he is going back to the same situation and if anything it might speak to changes underway.... i'm just guessing though.

2) Absolutely agree on marginal team. Signing Landry would have been another in a long list of wastes: Kapono, Fields, Kleiza....

[magoon]

Cap space towards WHAT??????

NOBODY IS FUCKING COMING HERE! Don't you see??

You think if Rudy fucking Gay was a free agent that he would sign here? I highly fucking doubt it.

First off, free agents often sign with marginal teams. I have no idea why Carl Landry decided to go back to Sacramento, but he did. The point is: stop being a marginal team. MLSE has publicly signalled willingness to go into the tax for a serious contending team and that matters; we're a very large market, the income tax situation for players is massively improved from the 1990s (when it was awful), and after twenty years, players love being here and everybody knows Toronto is a fun place to live with extremely dedicated fans (CB4 didn't leave because he didn't like the city; he left because he wanted to play with his friends on a contender, rather than be the big fish in an inept pond).

We've already taken the first important step by getting quality management pieces in place. Our management has been a league joke for over a decade, and nobody wants to sign with a team run by idiots. Leiweke and Ujiri were key steps to getting front office credibility, because serious players aren't going to sign with a team that overpays Landry Fields in the hopes of somehow overpaying a way-beyond-his-prime Steve Nash.

But to answer your question: no. I agree with you that Rudy would not sign here as a free agent, had he had the opportunity, because free agents chase money and talent, and we only have one of those.

[LBF]

Cap space is valuable for trades as well. You said earlier today you don't know the CBA and you are a fan, right? All I'm saying is cap space is not just about free agents. If you are above the salary cap you have to abide by rules for trades. It varies between 150%+$100K and $5M and $125%+$100k depending on trading teams circumstances. If you are under the cap you can make crazy unbalanced financial trades depending on how much cap space you have. So when you said:




That is why I said: Trades?

Cap space is more than about free agency.


If you understood all this already I apologize and somewhere along the way I obviously missed something.

No, I understand the CBA. The basics,anyway. I was just making the point that as a fan, it's really not my job to understand the CBA. Just to buy the ticket.

Earlier I snapped and may have not completely thought about making my point clear..You are thinking of trades. So, am I. But, I'm pretty sure my earlier post was not directed at you. So, I was questioning the guy I had quoted. At this point, I don't remember whom that was. If it was you, my apologies.

[Chr1s1anL]

I dont understand some posters urge to become antagonizing.

But your first point marks your ignorance. Chemistry is a team thing, and we havent built a team that last more than 1 season together in 7 years. Basketball is a team game, and the success of its parts are directly relative to the cohesiveness of the team as a whole. Bargnani was a lazy team player, failing in all things systematic, specifically on defense. His man-man was never a problem, it is his weak side rotations, and utter lazyness as a help defender/rebounder. If we have young players willing to grow their careers together, then they are willing to buy into the system, and grow into a mechanized whole. One which no longer depends on ISO after ISO on offense, and broken down Defense (what we saw last year).

Your dismissal of 2 5 game winning streaks is sad. Since the Raptors havent won 5 games in a row for more than 5 years. And dont tell me we didnt have 'easy' teams lined up in 5 years. This year we saw glimpses of a very talented team.

Obviously we believe this team has potential that is more than just mediocre, and can make some noise as it grows up. Thus putting the Raps on the map of relevancy, capable to attracting good players and staff.

I'm totally with you and seems like Massai is with you.

[mcHAPPY]

Hold up.. Trades? That's been my entire point..

Cap space is valuable for trades as well. You said earlier today you don't know the CBA and you are a fan, right? All I'm saying is cap space is not just about free agents. If you are above the salary cap you have to abide by rules for trades. It varies between 150%+$100K and $5M and $125%+$100k depending on trading teams circumstances. If you are under the cap you can make crazy unbalanced financial trades depending on how much cap space you have. So when you said:

Cap space towards WHAT??????

NOBODY IS FUCKING COMING HERE! Don't you see??

You think if Rudy fucking Gay was a free agent that he would sign here? I highly fucking doubt it.

That is why I said: Trades?

Cap space is more than about free agency.


If you understood all this already I apologize and somewhere along the way I obviously missed something.

[LBF]

Trades?

How do you think Utah took on $25M in contracts only sending back $800k?

Hold up.. Trades? That's been my entire point..

[mcHAPPY]

Like what? I hope you aren't thinking Sign -and-trades because that is the same fucking thing as free agents. They have to agree to come to your team..

Look, Here is the entire raptors transaction history. Go through the free agent singings since the inaugural season..

http://basketball.realgm.com/nba/tea...n_History/2012

Trades?

How do you think Utah took on $25M in contracts only sending back $800k?

[enlightenment]

yah totally. we should have given bargnani another 10 years but we gave him up too fast. how do we win anything if we don't give people the chance to fluorish??

2 5 game winning streaks? you mean at the end of the 4-19 start where we faced a bunch of shitty teams at home? or the stretch where JL and AA magically had some fluke good games to defeat the knicks (and lets face it, we would have lost those if our usual shitty players didn't all of a sudden have amazing games. both of which aren't even going to be on the team anymore). whats the other game winning streak? the last run at the end of the season where we 'beat' a bunch of playoff teams?'

the argument of just "run with the mediocre team we have because NO ONE will sign here" is useless and ridiculous.

I dont understand some posters urge to become antagonizing.

But your first point marks your ignorance. Chemistry is a team thing, and we havent built a team that last more than 1 season together in 7 years. Basketball is a team game, and the success of its parts are directly relative to the cohesiveness of the team as a whole. Bargnani was a lazy team player, failing in all things systematic, specifically on defense. His man-man was never a problem, it is his weak side rotations, and utter lazyness as a help defender/rebounder. If we have young players willing to grow their careers together, then they are willing to buy into the system, and grow into a mechanized whole. One which no longer depends on ISO after ISO on offense, and broken down Defense (what we saw last year).

Your dismissal of 2 5 game winning streaks is sad. Since the Raptors havent won 5 games in a row for more than 5 years. And dont tell me we didnt have 'easy' teams lined up in 5 years. This year we saw glimpses of a very talented team.

Obviously we believe this team has potential that is more than just mediocre, and can make some noise as it grows up. Thus putting the Raps on the map of relevancy, capable to attracting good players and staff.

[p00ka]

yah totally. we should have given bargnani another 10 years but we gave him up too fast. how do we win anything if we don't give people the chance to fluorish??

2 5 game winning streaks? you mean at the end of the 4-19 start where we faced a bunch of shitty teams at home? or the stretch where JL and AA magically had some fluke good games to defeat the knicks (and lets face it, we would have lost those if our usual shitty players didn't all of a sudden have amazing games. both of which aren't even going to be on the team anymore). whats the other game winning streak? the last run at the end of the season where we 'beat' a bunch of playoff teams?'

the argument of just "run with the mediocre team we have because NO ONE will sign here" is useless and ridiculous.

The bold: apparently some people get a free ticket to being an asshole. Whose ass do I have to refuse to kiss to get one of those?

The rest: You seem to miss the point. How many games has a starting unit of Lowry, DD, Gay, Amir, JV had a chance to play together, never mind have a summer and a training camp to work together? The point is to give these guys, ALL YOUNG, a chance to build some chemistry and get to know each other, and there might just be a damn good unit there.

[iblastoff]

Its a catch-22

How do you know that the pieces fit? Give them time and consistency. How do you know whether to give them time and consistency? You have to know that they fit!

Id say that there were 2, 5 game winning streaks that showed just how lethal the team can be when clicking. I think there were many more stretches that showed the flaw in our offensive sets and coordination. I think that the talent flourishes when given the chance, and that means giving the talent consistency to allow it to flourish.

yah totally. we should have given bargnani another 10 years but we gave him up too fast. how do we win anything if we don't give people the chance to fluorish??

2 5 game winning streaks? you mean at the end of the 4-19 start where we faced a bunch of shitty teams at home? or the stretch where JL and AA magically had some fluke good games to defeat the knicks (and lets face it, we would have lost those if our usual shitty players didn't all of a sudden have amazing games. both of which aren't even going to be on the team anymore). whats the other game winning streak? the last run at the end of the season where we 'beat' a bunch of playoff teams?'

the argument of just "run with the mediocre team we have because NO ONE will sign here" is useless and ridiculous.

[ceez]

Man say what you want about Detroit but they have some good young talent.

Forgot they have guys like Middleton and English on the wing.

If they got a pg like say... Billups, they could do some things. If I'm them and I want to win now I'd trade some of that young talent for a proven wing. People slam the Josh Smith signing but I actually like it. They can now trade Monroe for a guy like oh I dunno... Rudy Gay and have a pretty strong club.