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Rebuild or Re-tool? (thread merge in post #358)

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  • So Jerryd Bayless and Nate Robinson are likely to be free agents this summer... add that to the potential back up pg board, if Raps land Ujiri he will look at the team and want to shape them into a fast breaking team and will want to make sure whoever who comes off the bench for Lowry is an aggressive guard as well.

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    • Rapstor4Life wrote: View Post
      So Jerryd Bayless and Nate Robinson are likely to be free agents this summer... add that to the potential back up pg board, if Raps land Ujiri he will look at the team and want to shape them into a fast breaking team and will want to make sure whoever who comes off the bench for Lowry is an aggressive guard as well.
      That is also just an assumption.

      PGs Ujiri had in Denver were all true PGs. Lawson, Felton, Andre Miller....these are guys who run a team's offense (even if Lawson also scores a lot for them). I don't know if Ujiri like scoring PGs. Admittedly 3 years is not a large sample size to be able to tell this, but it's just my gut. Not sure he'd want a "me-first" scorer like Bayless or Nate.

      *Or how patient he'd be if we see another "hero-Kyle" heavy season from Lowry
      Last edited by white men can't jump; Thu May 30, 2013, 10:01 AM.

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      • white men can't jump wrote: View Post
        That is also just an assumption.

        PGs Ujiri had in Denver were all true PGs. Lawson, Felton, Andre Miller....these are guys who run a team's offense (even if Lawson also scores a lot for them). I don't know if Ujiri like scoring PGs. Admittedly 3 years is not a large sample size to be able to tell this, but it's just my gut. Not sure he'd want a "me-first" scorer like Bayless or Nate.

        *Or how patient he'd be if we see another "hero-Kyle" heavy season from Lowry
        Lowry is more of pure point guard than Ty Lawson
        @Chr1st1anL

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        • Chr1s1anL wrote: View Post
          Lowry is more of pure point guard than Ty Lawson
          and Felton who jacks up shot after shot when playing beside some pretty dam good players, hell Bayless is a better guard than Felton.

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          • Seeing Bayless silk off the floor and hollins grabbing his arm to get him back is enough of an indication that he still is not accepting his role in the nba. His opin

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            • Chr1s1anL wrote: View Post
              Lowry is more of pure point guard than Ty Lawson
              No, he's not. Lawson runs a team where several people are highly involved in the offense without it taking away from his game at all. This is something Lowry is incapable of....For him it's either score for himself or get others involved. Lawson does both because he's a better PG.

              As for Felton....he's playing beside garbage players. New York has a shitty team. He is their 3rd option. He has to take shots if they're going to win. He also tries to get people involved, but it's hard when the team's system is "give the ball to Melo and stand at the 3pt line". Felton always adjusts his game for his teammates. He's just often been on teams where he sort of falls into being one of the top options (Charlotte and New York fit this, at least). It's like, he just takes the shots Jose was reluctant to, but that Jose should (Jose never shot the ball enough for a PG).

              Again, Lowry, to me, has not found any balance where he can be a playmaking PG and a scorer.

              And to clear this up...true point guard doesn't mean "pass-first", it means "run the team's offense". Tony Parker is a true PG...he's also a scoring PG and the top offensive option in San Antonio. His game is in no way selfish though, or takes away from his teammates. Billups was another great example of this type of true PG while being a scorer. Lowry does often take away from his teammates when he scores, and scoring is one of his major skills. If a PG can't maximize his own and his team's skills, he's not a true PG. This is also why I can't stand Westbrook.

              *Edit: By "New York has a shitty team", I mean that after Melo, Smith and Felton, everyone else is pretty much 100% useless with the ball.

              **double edit: I also don't think Felton is actually a better player than Lowry, but that he has showed on different occasions that he really knows how to run his team.

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              • Matt52 wrote: View Post
                Seeing Bayless silk off the floor and hollins grabbing his arm to get him back is enough of an indication that he still is not accepting his role in the nba. His opin
                Its true when I saw that in the Spurs series I was like lol Bayless is gone. He was however one of the only four Grizzlies playing with any passion.

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                • Nothing new here but a good article from Grange given the time of year.

                  Incoming MLSE president and chief executive officer Tim Leiweke and general manager Masai Ujiri – scheduled to introduce themselves at a press conference in Toronto Tuesday — saw a team that may or may not have a shot at the playoffs, but one with a low ceiling.

                  Leiweke calls it being a 7-11 team – good enough to make the playoffs but not advance; bad enough to miss the playoffs but not have the benefit of a top pick. It’s a recipe for mediocrity, and Leiweke sounds like he wants no part of it.

                  Sounds good, but what to do? And what can be learned from the teams the Raptors will need to climb over at some point?
                  The Pacers, meanwhile, became the first team since the 1983 San Antonio Spurs to make it to the NBA’s final four without the benefit of a player taken in the top eight in the draft of any year. Their two best players in the series, Paul George and Roy Hibbert, were taken 10th and 17th respectively. Their other starters, Lance Stephenson, George Hill and David West were taken 10th, 26th and 18th.
                  If you’re from Toronto, and know what the city has to offer, it’s tough to accept being lumped in with the Milwaukee and Cleveland and Memphis and Indianapolis or Portland, Salt Lake City, Denver or Detroit.

                  But as the Raptors look to reinvent themselves yet another time, having failed heading into their 18th season to settle on a vision and a philosophy that works, what Ujiri and perhaps more importantly Leiweke sees when they watch Game 7 Monday night is a burning issue for the short- and long-term visions of the franchise.

                  Do they see Toronto as a glamour market waiting to be discovered?

                  Or do they accept their fate as one of the NBA’s “other” markets which will have to go about the dodgy business of building a winning team the long way around?

                  Or, more appropriately, will they recognize what they truly are: one of the NBA’s secondary markets, to be sure, but one with advantages that far outstrip niggly issues like higher taxes, cold weather or customs lineups?
                  Even more encouraging would by the recognition that the Raptors have one advantage that a lot of so-called secondary markets don’t – and that’s the ability and apparent willingness, according to Leiweke, be a tax team.

                  What that means is that should Ujiri be able to assemble a team that can find a way to compete it has a chance to be sustainable and won’t necessarily require being sold off for parts to avoid luxury tax penalties.
                  That with the bones of a winning team in place money can be spent to keep players and attract new ones.

                  It’s an option teams like Memphis or Indiana and other markets not among the league’s glamour set don’t necessarily have, but one that should be very real here. There is hope, in other words.
                  http://www.sportsnet.ca/basketball/n...pick-his-path/

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                  • Even more encouraging would by the recognition that the Raptors have one advantage that a lot of so-called secondary markets don’t – and that’s the ability and apparent willingness, according to Leiweke, be a tax team.

                    What that means is that should Ujiri be able to assemble a team that can find a way to compete it has a chance to be sustainable and won’t necessarily require being sold off for parts to avoid luxury tax penalties.
                    Does this mean we're going for CP3?
                    Twitter - @thekid_it

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                    • isaacthompson wrote: View Post
                      Does this mean we're going for CP3?
                      I would say no, definitely not.

                      But what it would mean, in my opinion, is that the next 2 years plays out like this:

                      13-14: lose the deadweight, create flexibility while being competitive and adding supporting players to the 'vision'
                      14-15: a second strong season would add to respectability and help capitalize on resources, flexibility, and foundation in place


                      In 1-2 years time start looking at the CP3's (i.e. top available talent) of 2014 or 2015 via free agency or most likely trade.

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                      • Rapstor4Life wrote: View Post
                        and Felton who jacks up shot after shot when playing beside some pretty dam good players, hell Bayless is a better guard than Felton.
                        Felton shot a better percentage than Lowry, getting nearly as many assists playing with the ball dominant Melo. Oh, and he contributed to a playoff team. Before the season started, I would have agreed with you, but Felton was pretty damn good for a guy having to play with a bunch of nutcases

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                        • isaacthompson wrote: View Post
                          Does this mean we're going for CP3?
                          I would say no as well at this point. But if we had something close to say a Denver team and while the Denver ownership I think would balk at splurging for a CP3 (go into luxury) the Raps would not. Also CP3 would want to go to a team which he would take over the top and the Raps are nowhere close.

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                          • Rebuild or Re-tool?

                            If you're Ujiri what would you do? do a complete rebuild? keep only JV. Move everybody else and tank for Wiggins?

                            Or re-tool? add some veteran players, hopefully find a PF, and take your chances in the playoffs?

                            I think this current Raps team could sneak in in the 7th-8th spot in the East next season. If they add an all-star caliber PF like an Al Jefferson i think they could go deep a lot like the Pacers this year.

                            If they do a complete rebuild, and finish with the worst or 2nd worst record in the league. There's no guarantee that they're going to get Wiggins or Parker. So doing that i think is a huge risk.

                            What would you do?

                            Btw, still shaking my head that the Raps could have had Lillard or Barnes or Beal in last year's draft but instead got Ross. Last year was the year where they should've tanked. All of them knew that 11-12 season was a lottery season. But thanks to Dwane Casey and his 'culture change' they missed out on all those great players in the draft.

                            This is another reason why i hate Casey. Not a very smart coach. Not thinking long term.
                            Mamba Mentality

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                            • Dont just blame Casey, BC was also quite ok with it. Actually seeing the finish line to get a decent pick and then putting your "A" team out there against the "C" team of your opponents during the last couple of weeks was beyond idiocy. We all know the how meaningful the stats are that time of season for the dreg teams.

                              Re the current team I am leaning towards a preference of a rebuild with a emphasis on getting a high pick in 2014 and collecting other picks which will be difficult (since everyone would want to hold on to their picks). Use the next season to instill the new style and possibly coach if Casey is not compatible. I believe this would be less risky than the retool unless Masai is able to swing a Melo like trade.....and this is unlikely.

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                              • TRex wrote: View Post
                                If you're Ujiri what would you do? do a complete rebuild? keep only JV. Move everybody else and tank for Wiggins?

                                Or re-tool? add some veteran players, hopefully find a PF, and take your chances in the playoffs?

                                I think this current Raps team could sneak in in the 7th-8th spot in the East next season. If they add an all-star caliber PF like an Al Jefferson i think they could go deep a lot like the Pacers this year.

                                If they do a complete rebuild, and finish with the worst or 2nd worst record in the league. There's no guarantee that they're going to get Wiggins or Parker. So doing that i think is a huge risk.

                                What would you do?

                                Btw, still shaking my head that the Raps could have had Lillard or Barnes or Beal in last year's draft but instead got Ross. Last year was the year where they should've tanked. All of them knew that 11-12 season was a lottery season. But thanks to Dwane Casey and his 'culture change' they missed out on all those great players in the draft.

                                This is another reason why i hate Casey. Not a very smart coach. Not thinking long term.
                                First Bold: Al Jefferson is FAR from all-star calibre. He's a very good big man, but like Rudy, not all-star calibre, yet. Second part of that, I could never see the team making an Eastern Conference Finals run mainly with Lowry/DeRozan/Gay/Jefferson/Valanciunas. Second round more likely (still quite unlikely), but Eastern Conference is a stretch considering Indiana, Miami, and Bulls with Rose are better teams, talent and system wise.

                                Second Bold: Tanking is stupid in my honest opinion. Bad players and veterans with expiring contracts to tank for 25% for the #1 pick is not the best for the future, especially because it's only 1/4 of a chance, not great odds. But trying to win games in an obvious lottery year is stupid too. That's why you keep the young players, and call it a development. Like what OKC did (although got very lucky), Golden State, & Cleveland. They all got great picks because of losing games due to lack of experience, and lack of developed NBA talent. Years allowed them to gain chemistry, develop themselves to be proven or established NBA players, and gain experience.

                                What would I do? Re-tool, because there are some solid pieces to move, such as DeRozan/Ross/Fields (log jam of wings - prospects/young players), Kyle Lowry (good solid point guard, expiring deal, possible cornerstone for a franchise at the position), Bargnani. If this team can get some expiring deals but also useful players, draft picks and or prospects, this team will have the ability to stay competitive, and have the future in mind as well, which is similar to how Denver built since Ujiri arrived there. Ujiri obviously doesn't have near the equal talent to EDIT* CARMELO, but some solid pieces to use in terms of "sweetening" a deal.
                                Last edited by ReubenJRD; Sun Jun 9, 2013, 02:11 AM.
                                Twitter: @ReubenJRD • NBA, Raptors writer for Daily Hive Vancouver, Toronto.

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