Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Rebuild or Re-tool? (thread merge in post #358)

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Apollo wrote: View Post
    Eric, you cheer for a team that history says most NBA players don't want to play for unless they're the highest bidder. So I ask you genuinely, how is it advantageous to get under cap?

    Secondly, why can't he simply make trades to acquire picks in the draft? Why is it best to gut the team and lose a bunch of games? There are other ways to get picks if drafting a prospect make sense.

    You're absolutely right when you say that the Raps. unimpressive history does not make Toronto a desired FA destination. If that's got to be different ten years from now, what history says then depends on what's done now.

    Regarding your 2nd para., there are many ways of doing it. Considering the circumstances, gutting the team makes sense to ME.
    Attitude Is A Choice.

    Comment


    • Primer wrote: View Post
      This should help everyone make a retool plan that might be similar to Ujiri's.

      From the Devlin interview with Ujiri it sounds like we're going to make some trades that will be a temporary step back for the team. Likely to bring in younger assets and draft picks, since Ujiri mentioned in his press conference that the team needs to be developing younger players on the end of the bench, and we currently have no picks this year. In my eyes, the guys most likely to be dealt are:

      snip snip snip

      I'm interested to see what everyone thinks and what some other ideas are.
      That was a interesting read. While the details may differ the fundamental proposal to increase the picks in the bare cupboard is most essential. That it may occur during 2014 draft with proven new talent evaluators is especially good timing. This however poses a possible fly in the ointment...that trading partners will be hesitant to give up picks in the year with a loaded draft. But we need to get off the current position of no picks, a high cap # and a below average to bad team.

      Comment


      • Mike Ganter at the Sun thinks the team is going to rebuild:


        It sounded very much like a man preparing a fan base for some lean times.

        http://www.torontosun.com/2013/06/05...n-teams-future
        I can get behind any approach the Raptors take. I can see the positives in blowing it up or tanking. I can also see the positives in tinkering with what the team currently has. I can also see the negatives in both.

        I'm excited to see what happens. The bold statement above is exciting.

        The only thing with tanking is, if you go that route, you better get maximum draft picks for what you send out.

        Comment


        • seiz wrote: View Post
          Again i really think it depends on what the goal is. If the end game is to be a perennial playoff team like: Denver, Indiana, or Atlanta, then tanking is absolutely unnecessary and would be a complete waste of time. Lets be clear though, these teams are not winning a championship anytime soon (ya Indiana pushed Miami to seven games, but I personally think that was due to Miami players outside of Lebron James not showing up to play).

          If the goal is actually to win a championship I think you have to blow it up and tank, especially with this upcoming draft. Retooling and making lateral moves is not going to make this team significantly better, unless you believe we have a future MVP in our current roster.

          It really depends on what you want. Do you want to be a team like Denver or Atlanta who have been to 9 and 6 straight playoff appearances respectively, with no bright spot of winning a championship? or do you want to be a team that has a legitimate shot of winning a championship, due to drafting that future MVP?
          My thoughts exactly. If you're happy with being a good, but not championship team then re-tooling is the path to follow. If it's a championship you want you have to do what it takes to get All NBA talent on the roster. Since we've never been able to do that through free agency or trades, the draft is the best bet. No guarantee you're drafting the next LeBron, but it's better trading for Rudy Gay imo (though I supported that decision and still do).

          Isn't it clear enough that the past championship teams have all had elite level players on their roster? How much more proof do you need that this is a damn near requisite for winning it all? Isn't it also clear that the best players that have ever put on a Raptors uniform (VC, McGrady, Bosh, JV) have come from the draft?

          Re-tooling imo is the same mentality that kept AB here for 7 years.

          Comment


          • Doug Smith offering supposed insights from around the league on Ujiri's press conference:

            A couple of guys I know from around the league, long-timers with excellent pedigrees and a knowledge of what’s going on, were mentioning the same thing yesterday when we were chatting about Masai’s first news conference.

            And the one enduring question, aside from anything hugely specific individual player issues, went like this:

            “How are they still selling patience?”

            Which got me thinking, which sometimes is a troubling event.

            Know what I want to hear a new general manager say when he gets to sit down and address his team’s fans for the first time?

            Something like this:

            “Screw patience, folks. I want to win now. I’m not going to ask you to wait and see where we go, we’re going to go forward right now.

            “No one’s job is safe and it shouldn’t be; we’ve been bad and that’s why I got this job and we’re done being bad. I’m not going to put with it and neither are you and I promise when next season starts things are going to be different around here.

            “And it won’t take long, I promise you that. I’m going to make bold moves right away to shake things up around here and if the other GMs are watching, call me today because we’re open for business.

            “If it doesn’t work? Well, I’m going to get fired but I’m going to get fired if it doesn’t work if we go slowly and wait 18 months.

            “Screw patience. Change is coming and it’s coming fast.”

            Do you think fans would rather hear that?

            Not that what Masai said or anyone says is wrong, it’s how they feel how they want the message delivered, not only to the team’s fans but to others around the league.

            And trust me, others around the league pay close attention, either through media reports or by watching the live feed, just to take the temperature of the franchise.

            The TV show wasn’t over half an hour the other day when I got my first text from someone in a significant position in the league to ask what it was like – and to mention I looked “dashing” in my blue golf shirt, which was nice because I quite like looking dashing – and I got at least two e-mails from executives on other teams to mention things they’d seen or heard.

            So those “messages” in this day and age of saturation coverage, go far further than a team’s fan base.

            http://thestar.blogs.com/raptors/201...e-to-hear.html
            I personally think the bold is short sighted and dangerous; it also ignores that the whole front office has pretty much been fired. Not sure how much more drastic the changes can be at this time. In the attempt to "win now" how does Toronto do that? What pieces are they going to trade to bring back enough to immediately compete for a championship? What cap space or flexibility do they have to add pieces to compete for a championship? The same people who lack patience and want to win right now are the same people who will grow tired and frustrated with being a first round exit year after year. Whether you tank (like OKC) or slowly build (like Indiana), it requires patience. If you go full with reckless abandon to win now - money be damned - I don't think you need to look any farther than the JailBlazers teams of the late 90's/early 2000's or the Isiah Thomas Knicks teams of the early 2000's to see what can and likely will go wrong.

            Comment


            • Doug Smith is a clown.

              Why is he so upset? Because Ujiri didn't show up to the press conference with his chest puffed out making crazy promises? Is he expecting him to strong arm other GMs into making trades with him to drastically improve his team this summer?

              Comment


              • Oh, and $20 bucks says that the text Doug Smith got asking about how it went was from BC.

                Comment


                • Matt52 wrote: View Post

                  I personally think the bold is short sighted and dangerous; it also ignores that the whole front office has pretty much been fired. Not sure how much more drastic the changes can be at this time. In the attempt to "win now" how does Toronto do that? What pieces are they going to trade to bring back enough to immediately compete for a championship? What cap space or flexibility do they have to add pieces to compete for a championship? The same people who lack patience and want to win right now are the same people who will grow tired and frustrated with being a first round exit year after year. Whether you tank (like OKC) or slowly build (like Indiana), it requires patience. If you go full with reckless abandon to win now - money be damned - I don't think you need to look any farther than the JailBlazers teams of the late 90's/early 2000's or the Isiah Thomas Knicks teams of the early 2000's to see what can and likely will go wrong.
                  I think every fan would love to hear that the GM of his team had the magic formula and was going to swoop in and fix everything in one fell swoop. If it was true. Of course, no team is built overnight and there is no magic formula. It takes years to build a contender in any sport.

                  This is the same sort of nonsense that was in the podcast on this site yesterday. "Oh, he didn't say what he was going to do with every player. He didn't tell us all about his plans and philosophy. What a joke. He doesn't know what he's doing. How'd he get hired if he has no plan? He's just a puppet". Stuck on stupid.

                  As I said yesterday, TL and Ujiri already have a plan. Pretty clear when you fire half the management on day one. They just aren't going to tell everyone about it in public. "hey my first order of business is to trade Bargnani. We're really desperate to get rid of him, so, call me GMs! We'll take a bag of balls!"

                  Comment


                  • Yeah, I'd prefer him not discuss his roster plans with the media. Negotiating is all about leverage and leverage is power. Knowledge is power. If he divulges the knowledge then he hurts his leverage.

                    One good thing about Colangelo was he didn't show his cards. Hopefully Ujiri is like that as well... Unless he's out to leak disinformation.

                    Comment


                    • Doug Smith is so whiny he puts my 2 year old to shame
                      @sweatpantsjer

                      Comment


                      • Apollo wrote: View Post
                        Yeah, I'd prefer him not discuss his roster plans with the media. Negotiating is all about leverage and leverage is power. Knowledge is power. If he divulges the knowledge then he hurts his leverage.

                        One good thing about Colangelo was he didn't show his cards. Hopefully Ujiri is like that as well... Unless he's out to leak disinformation.
                        Colangelo was good in general on the showing card bit. He botched Bargnani though. I think he mishandled that entire situation from start to finish.

                        Comment


                        • Yeah, he was one year too late on moving the guy in the most optimistic interpretation of recent Raptors history.

                          Comment


                          • So other execs are upset that Masai didn't show his cards and look like a sucker...He's already ditched the front office. I'm more interested in actions not talk. The media loves over the top rushed actions. But, the best executives don't necessarily make good news fodder. As a fan, I want an exec who wants to win, not make an old man's job easier.

                            Comment


                            • Matt52 wrote: View Post
                              Colangelo was good in general on the showing card bit. He botched Bargnani though. I think he mishandled that entire situation from start to finish.
                              Colangelo always gave you hints though. From the moment he showed up, he would always leave enough bread crumbs so people knew what he was thinking. Not specifics, but enough vague comments to put you on the right general path.

                              I suspect that Ujiri is going to be even less revealing than that, which is going to frustrate media and fans who want constant information, 24/7/365.

                              Comment


                              • If you want breadcrumbs then look at the types of players he brought into Denver. You're right, actions are telling.

                                Moving on to Matt:

                                Matt52 wrote: View Post
                                I personally think the bold is short sighted and dangerous; it also ignores that the whole front office has pretty much been fired.
                                Ujiri made his bold moves as a defensive measure, he was pushed into a corner. Bold can be good as long as it's not a stupid move (ie: high risk, low reward). I think Ujiri was hired because of his eye for talent and his will to not buckle in his environment.

                                Matt52 wrote: View Post
                                In the attempt to "win now" how does Toronto do that? What pieces are they going to trade to bring back enough to immediately compete for a championship? What cap space or flexibility do they have to add pieces to compete for a championship? The same people who lack patience and want to win right now are the same people who will grow tired and frustrated with being a first round exit year after year.
                                Its impossible for those fans to get what they want. A sharp guy like Ujiri isn't going to bring in aged stars to assemble a two or three year window at a ring. That's too shortsighted and probably unrealistic for reasons you've mentioned.

                                Matt52 wrote: View Post
                                Whether you tank (like OKC) or slowly build (like Indiana), it requires patience. If you go full with reckless abandon to win now - money be damned - I don't think you need to look any farther than the JailBlazers teams of the late 90's/early 2000's or the Isiah Thomas Knicks teams of the early 2000's to see what can and likely will go wrong.
                                No doubt.

                                Comment

                                Working...
                                X