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Rebuild or Re-tool? (thread merge in post #358)

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  • Matt52 wrote: View Post
    Doug Smith offering supposed insights from around the league on Ujiri's press conference:



    I personally think the bold is short sighted and dangerous; it also ignores that the whole front office has pretty much been fired. Not sure how much more drastic the changes can be at this time. In the attempt to "win now" how does Toronto do that? What pieces are they going to trade to bring back enough to immediately compete for a championship? What cap space or flexibility do they have to add pieces to compete for a championship? The same people who lack patience and want to win right now are the same people who will grow tired and frustrated with being a first round exit year after year. Whether you tank (like OKC) or slowly build (like Indiana), it requires patience. If you go full with reckless abandon to win now - money be damned - I don't think you need to look any farther than the JailBlazers teams of the late 90's/early 2000's or the Isiah Thomas Knicks teams of the early 2000's to see what can and likely will go wrong.
    Good grief DS is such a goofball. If anyone has followed MU's time in Denver at least will realize that he is not given to bombastic chants or rash decision making. As Slaw mentioned above PhdSteve on the podcast yesterday gave out pretty much the same vibe...DS managed to actually embellish it further. He still hasnt learned that you may think certain strategies/thoughts but some are best left unsaid....most times. Are other GMs such dumb fucks that they rely on introductory pressers to glean true intentions of a fellow gm? And one other aspect of Ujiri's personality....and I dont mean to generalize...that his heritage/background as an African does not typically lend to public bombast. I have met many Africans thru the years and there is something about the general ethos of one from that continent that is humble and giving. It maybe because of their colonial history where they had so much stripped from them but it may also be the hierarchical nature of tribal culture which is deferential....until one becomes the "chief".

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    • “We’re going to build a team the right way,” Ujiri said. “If it takes time doing that, hey, it’s what we have to do. But we will build the team the right way. Sometimes, it’s going to take patience. Sometimes we’ll go through hard times. After we’ve analyzed this team, you guys will figure out the direction (we’re) going.”

      It sounded very much like a man preparing a fan base for some lean times.

      http://www.torontosun.com/2013/06/05...n-teams-future
      The first part of this quote is interesting as well.

      If you read between some lines:

      you have Leiweke saying the team is not good enough which was in direct contrast to Colangelo - and of course now Colangelo runs the business side of things.

      then you have Ujiri saying we're going to build the right way - which would imply this team is not built "right".



      I'm starting to get the feeling that JV (and maybe a couple of other players) is the down payment on a brand new BMW while the rest of the roster is the wreck on blocks in the garage that is going to be stripped for parts and sold off to make the payments on the Bimmer.

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      • Fully wrote: View Post
        Oh, and $20 bucks says that the text Doug Smith got asking about how it went was from BC.
        Or do you think the people Doug considers friends and buddies in other front offices and does he not think they might have an agenda or ulterior motives with sending him their "thoughts"?

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        • I'm with retool. I really do not want to see more losing please

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          • NoPropsneeded wrote: View Post
            I'm with retool. I really do not want to see more losing please
            A complete rebuild might be the best route though. Whatever Ujiri and his crew decides, I'm on board with. He seems to actually understand what it takes to win

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            • For better or worse, tanking is on the table - from TL:

              On whether he would have a problem with the Raptors “tanking:” “Nope. This is [Ujiri’s] decision and his direction and we are going to let our president and GM make those decisions and we will follow him religiously. At the same time — and let’s be clear here — if he walks in the door and says we have a trade to make and this trade will get us a major chip and by the way it’s going to put us in the luxury tax, our owners have made it very clear we will be OK with that too. He is in a unique position. As far as I can tell this is the deepest and the team with the most resources of any team in the NBA. I think that is one of the reasons … he’s here.”

              http://sports.nationalpost.com/2013/...l-name-change/

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              • Sidenote: a lot of times people bring up a team like Atlanta, and suggest this is what will happen when you get into that mediocrity territory, that you are somehow stuck there forever, that it is impossible to grow from there. I don't know why that would be the case. With good management there will always be possibilities when you focus not just on that very year to get players like Splitter, Hibbert or even McGee to develop with upside instead of getting players like Bibby, Collins, Maurice Evans, Joe Smith or even Crawford and Pachulia. You're stuck in mediocrity if you have a good but not great core and you put veterans next to them with the intention to win as much as possible that year (even if it's not at all a give that this in fact will help you win more, but that's somewhat beside the sidepoint).

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                • Im fine with Tanking if its a brand new team meaning Ujiri sheds everyone and the team is nothing but JV and Ross moving forward....

                  accumulate picks and get Burke. nobody is untradable/safe besides JV.

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                  • Isn't that weird hearing Tim talking about "tanking" as an option so out in the open?! isn't the league frown on that big time?!

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                    • Hotshot wrote: View Post
                      Isn't that weird hearing Tim talking about "tanking" as an option so out in the open?! isn't the league frown on that big time?!
                      Stern killed a deal for a perennial all-star big, and likely hall of famer, in Pau Gasol so the NOH could tank. There was no hiding it, no shame from them or any remorse.

                      Tanking hasn't been frowned upon by anyone but some pundits and fans for a very long time now
                      Last edited by Craiger; Fri Jun 7, 2013, 12:56 AM.

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                      • Raptor_11 wrote: View Post
                        A complete rebuild might be the best route though. Whatever Ujiri and his crew decides, I'm on board with. He seems to actually understand what it takes to win
                        I'm down with a complete rebuild... as long as they do it right and actually lose enough for it to be worth it.

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                        • I can see the appeal in a blow up. The thing about the blow up that is attractive I think is the unknown and the possibility of finding greatness. The analogy is not the greatest but I think of a blow up like a game of roulette (no, not Russian). I've said all along I am fine with either and still am.



                          I think the strategy needs to be on clearing as much salary off the books by the end of 2014 but not with the goal of free agency or trades in mind - at least not next year. The goal should be to be able to spend a year acting as a broker for playoff or contending teams looking to cut salary much like Cleveland has done this last year. The summer of 2015 would be the year to make moves in free agency or make a Harden-like move and it would also be the last summer before JV gets an extension.

                          The reality is when talking about blowing it up, the only players of any worth the Raptors have are Lowry, DeRozan, Gay, and Amir (although I personally hope Amir is kept).



                          If any Raptors trade involving Lowry, Gay, or DeRozan could acquire draft picks and one young role player in addition to bad contracts, then I am all over it.

                          Draft picks are pretty clear. Multiple 2014 pick would be awesome to have as well and if you do blow it up you need to get back at least one extra. The 2013 draft is getting a lot of bad press but that is at the top. I think there are some really good value in teens to early 2nd round.

                          Solid young role players would be guys like Amir or Fields (forget his contract). Players like Ryan Anderson, Eric Bledsoe, or Gordon Hayward would fit the bill (not saying they are available).

                          Bad contracts would be the Biedrins, Jefferson, Gooden, Salmons, Marvin Williams etc.



                          The great thing the Raptors have going for them is they have the hardest position to acquire covered. I think JV has shown his floor moving forward to be that of an average NBA C at the absolute worst.

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                          • Balderdash

                            Craiger wrote: View Post
                            Stern killed a deal for a perennial all-star big, and likely hall of famer, in Pau Gasol so the NOH could tank. There was no hiding it, no shame from them or any remorse.

                            Tanking hasn't been frowned upon by anyone but some pundits and fans for a very long time now
                            If that were true there wouldn't be a lottery.

                            If I remember correctly, the league was trying to find a suitor to take the team and had the objective to keep the team as mailable as possible. Adding big contracts isn't exactly going to make it any easier for the next owner to build their vision unless that vision had a guy like Pau Gasol in it. Also, pulling the trigger on that would involve the league signing on for added expenses to a team they shouldn't be running and was looking to unload ASAP. They were in a major conflict of interest no matter what they did. It was a losing situation.

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                            • if we tank there are at least 5 franchise guys available in the draft. It's not all about Wiggins...just mostly
                              For still frame photograph of me reading the DeRozan thread please refer to my avatar

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                              • All my chips on red?

                                A lot can happen between now and then. Kabongo was viewed as a possible top prospect for 2013 a few years ago; people were making Rondo comparisons. My how things can change with time.

                                Flip side, last year Waiters wasn't on anyone's radar until workouts. He had good workouts and it changed the draft. One unexpected pick ahead have killed dreams and made dreams. This is why I'd rather them make conscious moves for rookie players on draft day.

                                You know, like the Pacers did to get Hibbert a few years back? Or like Boston did to get Rondo?

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