Rebuild or Re-tool? (thread merge in post #358)

[Nilanka]

That Mike K. can be such a sanctimonius ----. It doesnt take a rocket scientist to understand the profound real operational differences between the college recruitment process and the equivalent pro draft one of gathering talent....that in his world if his university werent among the cream he would not get the consensus all-americans considering his school while of in the pros one has to be bad in order to acquire the same great talent. There are also no trades in college...what you recruit is what you play with and I wonder what he has to say about all the violations which occur (under the table) to enable the recruitment.

I was thinking the same thing yesterday. Wonder if Coach K would change his tune if we has coaching at UTEP (for example) instead of Duke.

[Bendit]

That Mike K. can be such a sanctimonius ----. It doesnt take a rocket scientist to understand the profound real operational differences between the college recruitment process and the equivalent pro draft one of gathering talent....that in his world if his university werent among the cream he would not get the consensus all-americans considering his school while of in the pros one has to be bad in order to acquire the same great talent. There are also no trades in college...what you recruit is what you play with and I wonder what he has to say about all the violations which occur (under the table) to enable the recruitment.

[mcHAPPY]

Add Michael Grange to the list

Kelly, Arthur, and now Grange:

And in the NBA the correlation between draft position and professional success is very strong.

In the past 10 years the only four players on the all-NBA first team not taken in the top five of the draft were Kobe Bryant (13th in 1996), Amar’e Stoudemire (ninth in 2002), Dirk Nowitzki (ninth in 1998) and Steve Nash (15th in 1996). And in each case there were specific circumstances that explained why they were outliers: Bryant was among the first wave of the preps-to-pros trend, when it was still deemed a risk to take a high school player; Stoudemire was a high schooler picked during the backlash of that trend; Nowitzki was drafted when taking Europeans so high was a bit novel; and Nash was a small-college star who emerged from the “hinterlands” of Vancouver Island.

Of the 150 spots on all-NBA first, second or third teams in the past decade, only 12 players have earned one who weren’t lottery picks.

The Raptors know this all too well. The franchise has only had five playoff teams in 18 seasons, and each of them was built around an All-NBA performer—either Vince Carter or Chris Bosh, both of whom were taken in the top five of the draft.

Needless to say the Raptors as built don’t have a serious candidate for an all-star selection, let alone players capable of earning All-NBA recognition.

So is the great dismantling at hand? How many more team parties can the current edition of the Raptors have together?

As their bosses were watching the spectacle Tuesday night in Chicago the real question is what the Raptors should do to have a chance to add the kind of elite talent that was on display as a foundation piece for their troubled franchise.

The answer was likely obvious to anyone watching: Whatever it takes.

http://www.sportsnet.ca/basketball/w...g-tantalizing/

[mcHAPPY]

*BUMP to the original TANK thread*

Another Toronto reporter looking for a tank.

Kelly earlier today and now Bruce Arthur:

This is why you tank. This is why you trade good players with bad contracts, why you start a point guard who can’t dribble or a big man with heavy feet, why your bench is a rec league. This is why you stare glumly at the scoreboard, why some nights are long and empty, why your coach needs a drink. Sports are supposed to be about winning and, in the NBA, that means sometimes you have to lose.

Tuesday night ESPN put together four of the best college basketball teams in the country, and 80 NBA scouts showed up, and the lights turned on. The NBA is about finding superstars, and when superstars don’t force their way to your town — LeBron James, Chris Paul, and so forth — the draft is the best place to unearth them. Not every draft is created equal, but the best ones change franchises. Some years, the stars come in a constellation.

There is a thrill to this, the giddy unknown, the lightness of possibility. What could they be? What will they become? You don’t know what’s inside them, how they will handle the attention and their talent and the future, but this looks like the kind of draft class where you don’t just have to luck into the top pick to change your franchise. The last time a raft of teams tried to lose to get stars, it was for the 2003 draft, where James, Carmelo Anthony, Chris Bosh and Dwyane Wade all went in the top five. It ended badly, but it beat the alternative.

And that is why even though Raptors general manager Masai Ujiri is loathe to lose on purpose, hates the way it can poison a culture and hurt your reputation, and has promised patience and long-range thinking, it is time to tank. You can argue that letting Rudy Gay become the first player since at least 1985 to take 37 shots and not score 30 points is like tanking, or that DeMar DeRozan and Gay’s combined low-efficiency mess is tanking, or that coach Dwane Casey’s strange rotation and in-game coaching is tanking.

But Gay and DeRozan aren’t this bad, and Kyle Lowry will get healthier, and this team will plod around the soggy middle. Yes, it would be very difficult to move Gay and get real value back. Yes, DeRozan and Lowry are in sell-low mode. Yes, Utah’s already out ahead, and Sacramento’s a mess, but Philadelphia and Phoenix and Boston have accidentally won some games, although it might not last. Duke coach Mike Krzyzewski pretended to have never heard of tanking after Tuesday’s game, saying, “If that is happening, shame on whoever is doing it.”

No. Because the world is based on incentives and probabilities, and sometimes you have to work lousy jobs, or play lousy players, to get where you need to go. It won’t be easy, but tank. Blow it up. Fall apart as hard as you can, and reach for the stars.

http://sports.nationalpost.com/2013/...medium=twitter

[Superjudge]

Ha!

[Axel]

To paraphrase the great philosopher of our time, LL Cool J:

"Don't call it a re-build, we've been building for years"

[white men can't jump]

Charlotte with Detroits and Portland's pick is my wet dream.

I agree with you on later picks too. Weltman and Masai have shown very good drafting abilities and draft night trading in the last few years with mid to late first round picks.

Especially with this draft that is supposedly stacked. Some of the mid-late first rounders could be comparable to top 10 talents in most years. And I can believe it with this draft. And I think you've even mentioned before, it looks like a good PG crop, even after the top guys like Smart and Harrison, and Exum depending on whether you think he'll actually be slotted at PG in the NBA. Semaj Christon looks plenty intriguing for example. I want a PG to slot next to Jonas so badly....one that can actually play with a big man.

[mcHAPPY]

I don't know why people are so obsessed with getting a high first in a trade....Not suggesting your obsessed, specifically, but given the talent in this draft, it also wouldn't be bad to pick up a later pick, especially if Ujiri wants scouting to be improved during his tenure.

If the Raps land a top 6 or 7 pick of their own by deciding to blow it up, I'd be ok with another acquired pick being in the late teens or early 20s...especially since it's so incredibly early at this point that we definitely don't know who could slide even just a few spots. And those picks are probably more likely to be available.

I'm a firm believer that no team that figures to be in the lottery will trade away their pick. The best chance would be conning a fringe playoff team into an early season trade and hoping they totally disintegrate....but even then, would any team part with a pick that wasn't highly protected?

If people really want to rebuild through the draft, they have to realize there is talent lower in the draft, and that there will be talent in subsequent drafts that might even be much easier to trade into the top of, especially right now if teams will value them less than a pick in this year's draft.

Charlotte with Detroits and Portland's pick is my wet dream.

I agree with you on later picks too. Weltman and Masai have shown very good drafting abilities and draft night trading in the last few years with mid to late first round picks.

[mcHAPPY]

I have said this before and shall do so once more...TL did not come here to play around with the status quo. He bounced BC because he got advice from pros in the business that the team was mired and overpaid. He hires MU and they both sing kumbaya/from the same hymn book that they are on the same wave length.

Now unless the basketball gods wave a wand and turn the mice into stallions, logic dictates that MU is lying in the weeds to achieve a high draft pick (whether ours or by trade) in what promises to be they say the best collection of talent in a decade. More cap space (eg. by trading Gay) to get at least 1 quality f/a and 2 top six first rounders next summer will suit me just fine. I am personally not stuck on Wiggins specifically. That's a fools errand imo. Let then the games begin.

ps getting another high first thru trade will admittedly be difficult but....

Exactly. Games have yet to be played - guys will fall, guys will come from out of nowhere but:

Randle, Exum, Harrison, Smart, Selden, Gordon, Parker, in addition to Wiggins. If the Raptors can get in the top 8 in this draft I feel pretty confident that would be equal to a top 2 pick last year.

[white men can't jump]

I have said this before and shall do so once more...TL did not come here to play around with the status quo. He bounced BC because he got advice from pros in the business that the team was mired and overpaid. He hires MU and they both sing kumbaya/from the same hymn book that they are on the same wave length.

Now unless the basketball gods wave a wand and turn the mice into stallions, logic dictates that MU is lying in the weeds to achieve a high draft pick (whether ours or by trade) in what promises to be they say the best collection of talent in a decade. More cap space (eg. by trading Gay) to get at least 1 quality f/a and 2 top six first rounders next summer will suit me just fine. I am personally not stuck on Wiggins specifically. That's a fools errand imo. Let then the games begin.

ps getting another high first thru trade will admittedly be difficult but....

I don't know why people are so obsessed with getting a high first in a trade....Not suggesting your obsessed, specifically, but given the talent in this draft, it also wouldn't be bad to pick up a later pick, especially if Ujiri wants scouting to be improved during his tenure.

If the Raps land a top 6 or 7 pick of their own by deciding to blow it up, I'd be ok with another acquired pick being in the late teens or early 20s...especially since it's so incredibly early at this point that we definitely don't know who could slide even just a few spots. And those picks are probably more likely to be available.

I'm a firm believer that no team that figures to be in the lottery will trade away their pick. The best chance would be conning a fringe playoff team into an early season trade and hoping they totally disintegrate....but even then, would any team part with a pick that wasn't highly protected?

If people really want to rebuild through the draft, they have to realize there is talent lower in the draft, and that there will be talent in subsequent drafts that might even be much easier to trade into the top of, especially right now if teams will value them less than a pick in this year's draft.

[Bendit]

I have said this before and shall do so once more...TL did not come here to play around with the status quo. He bounced BC because he got advice from pros in the business that the team was mired and overpaid. He hires MU and they both sing kumbaya/from the same hymn book that they are on the same wave length.

Now unless the basketball gods wave a wand and turn the mice into stallions, logic dictates that MU is lying in the weeds to achieve a high draft pick (whether ours or by trade) in what promises to be they say the best collection of talent in a decade. More cap space (eg. by trading Gay) to get at least 1 quality f/a and 2 top six first rounders next summer will suit me just fine. I am personally not stuck on Wiggins specifically. That's a fools errand imo. Let then the games begin.

ps getting another high first thru trade will admittedly be difficult but....

[Shantz]

The Raptors hosted their first ever Season Preview event for season ticket holders. TSN has a good article which sums up the night, including some good quotes about the direction of the team moving forward:

""For me there's no spin to it, I don't believe in all that, for me everything is from here," he said pointing to his heart. "You say what your plan is, you say what your direction is and you go execute. We have to be accountable and that's what [fans] want, that's what I think we are supposed to do."


""We have to figure out our team and evaluate everything and that evaluation starts October 30," Ujiri explained. "Is there chemistry? Is there growth? Are we moving in the right direction? Are players getting better? Are we giving them the right opportunity?"

http://m.tsn.ca/nba/article?url=http...A&feedId=82003

Although this is nothing brand new, and is filled with buzzwords (chemistry, growth, etc.), I can't help but read into this how unattached to this roster he truly is.

[Superjudge]

Honestly, anyone living in Toronto, and understanding the NBA climate that exists here not on the "Wiggans or Bust" wagon needs to have their heads read. Toronto, morse this than ANY year, needs to be last place. If there is a potential Superstar in the making, from Toronto, in next years draft, this franchise must do ANYTHING, unfair, immoral, illegal, or otherwise to gain the best possible position from which to select him.

Its that simple.

[mcHAPPY]

I can never tell if Smith and Jones are actually speaking their minds, or if they're just spewing corporate messages.

With Colangelo gone, I would assume the muzzles no longer exist, but then again, you just never know...

lol - agreed

I hope this is the message MU/TL want out there so Toronto can enter any trade discussion from a position of strength. If they wait too long and the losses pile up or are sitting outside the playoffs, there will be no strength to be had regardless.

[Nilanka]

I can never tell if Smith and Jones are actually speaking their minds, or if they're just spewing corporate messages.

With Colangelo gone, I would assume the muzzles no longer exist, but then again, you just never know...