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Rebuild or Re-tool? (thread merge in post #358)

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  • blackjitsu wrote: View Post
    Come on Matt, there are what 4 well managed teams in the NBA? Poor management doesn't disprove his fact at all. The only well managed team to win the lottery was San Antonio.
    Boston
    Chicago
    Atlanta
    Indiana
    Miami
    Orlando (Henningan is only in his 2nd year but they are on a very good path)
    Golden State
    Houston
    Clippers
    Lakers (despite shit show of late)
    OKC
    San Antonio
    Utah


    They are all teams that I would say are well managed.

    Comment


    • Matt52 wrote: View Post
      Boston
      Chicago
      Atlanta
      Indiana
      Miami
      Orlando (Henningan is only in his 2nd year but they are on a very good path)
      Golden State
      Houston
      Clippers
      Lakers (despite shit show of late)
      OKC
      San Antonio
      Utah


      They are all teams that I would say are well managed.
      I'd say you even leave out some well managed teams, e.g. the Warriors are going up and are doing well the last couple of years with their decisions. The jury is now out on Denver, but it was well managed. And, despite all the criticism, the Nets have done exactly what they wanted to do and nobody can deny their relevancy at the moment and their great marketing. I personally think Memphis is not badly managed as well.

      Comment


      • Dino4life wrote: View Post
        http://hoopshype.com/articles/sierra...to-their-teams

        10% Via free agency
        24.6% Via Trade
        65.3% Via Draft
        This article looks good enough to "sticky" someplace so it will be readily available whenever this conversation comes up. I haven't read the whole thing, so there may be provisos, but it seems to be a pretty comprehensive breakdown.

        Comment


        • Lefty wrote: View Post
          ... Say in a year or two down the road, we add another borderline all star. Not cutting it. We are not even sniffing the Larry Obrien with this team. So if we want to win, we gotta go in another direction....
          I don't have the time, but it would be interesting to list where the last 6-10 (different) teams that have appeared in the finals game were, three years before their appearances. That is, what position, what roster, and what changes they made to get there. While drafting is the way 65% or all ALL-NBA Team selections made it to their respective teams, did the teams making it to the finals have to trade, or acquire through free agency, the final couple of pieces?

          I suspect yes.

          Comment


          • blackjitsu wrote: View Post
            Come on Matt, there are what 4 well managed teams in the NBA? Poor management doesn't disprove his fact at all. The only well managed team to win the lottery was San Antonio.
            How do you possibly come to that conclusion?

            - managment changes over time. Cleveland has gone through 3 (maybe 4?) GMs since Lebron was drafted.
            - ownership changes, and as such expectations on managers change over time. Golden State sold in 2010, since then how the team has operated changed greatly (may have been a management change aswell although I'm not sure on that)
            - good managers taking good risks can still lose. Even Warren Buffet has plenty of losers in his portfolio.
            - and what the heck was the criteria here? Winning a lottery/drafting a stud and then winning a championship or building a contender is the only thing that defines 'good management'? Reading Matt52's posts doesn't seem to indicate to me that was his criteria - seems that he has a much broader view of 'good management'.

            Poor management may not disprove the stated 'fact'. There may be other reasons to. But I'd point out the 'fact' is not a 'fact' at all. Its at best a very weak correlation that avoids all causation.

            LBF's argument was, even if he didn't mean it as such, making a great pick = losing that player. Which simply avoids the 1000s of different events that take place between those two points. Matt52 (and others) were pointing out a very obvious cause of the result.

            Drafting a stud (in this case Wiggins) doesn't mean he'll leave because Lebron did. Drafting a stud and then doing a crappy job building around/with him will likely greatly increase the chance he'll leave though. But even that argument is universal to all players and all forms of team building. There is no shortage players (studs or not) who will leave their team if their team is doing a crappy job, or even if their team isn't doing a crappy job. No matter if they are drafted, traded for or signed as a free agent.

            What if you draft a stud and building around him doesn't work out? What if you trade for a stud and building around him doesn't work out? What if you sign a stud and building around him doesn't work out? What if you try and build a Detroit like well rounded roster without a stud and it doesn't work?

            I really don't know - what do you do if something doesn't work out? Keep trying or fold up into the fetal position and give up I guess......


            I have no idea why tanking threads need to be become such a bastion of logical fallacies.

            Comment


            • Craiger wrote: View Post
              ... have no idea why tanking threads need to be become such a bastion of logical fallacies.
              When you are right, you are right.

              Comment


              • magoon wrote: View Post
                Then you're going to lose with him rather than without him. Like we've said before: Rudy is not a bad player. He's an overpaid one who isn't getting the job done for us, but that's not his fault: that's BC's fault for pretending he was a franchise player when he wasn't one.

                Most of the pro-tankers here were completely opposed to the Detroit offer last week because it was laughably low. That hasn't changed, but the Detroit offer was the start of a good offer: if they had thrown in KCP and a draft pick, say, it might well have been worth considering. Expiring contracts, a good young prospect, and picks: that's the currency we want for our overpaid-but-competent players.
                What are you on about? Colangelo never said anything about him being a franchise player and he's only been here half a season. The way your talking is like he's been here for years..

                On the chance that you do get a "franchise" player. You need more than that.

                The way your talking is like..trade everyone who's "good" on the team because they're not "franchise" players..

                "Gay is over-paid"..So is the entire friggin league!

                He's our best player. You don't just trade away your best player because "he's over-paid".

                There's two ways you attract good players to come here. Championship contention or money. The raptors are not contenders. Therefore, they are going to have to pony up the cash and (over) pay for players, if they hope to go anywhere..

                That's the way the world works. It doesn't matter if your a lawyer, doctor, mechanic, or pro athlete. You want someone good, your going to have to "over" pay them..

                The money does not matter. It's what they give you in return for that money.

                Gay gives us a great (elite?) wing player. Which we have not had in a damn long while..
                If Your Uncle Jack Helped You Off An Elephant, Would You Help Your Uncle Jack Off An Elephant?

                Sometimes, I like to buy a book on CD and listen to it, while reading music.

                Comment


                • I think the Raps are neither tanking nor re-tooling. My prediction is that the season would start as is with Lowry, DD, Gay, Amir and JV. They'll put up similar numbers as last year and once the playoff picture gets clearer, there will be a mad fire sale by the trade deadline. I guess people would wonder what happens if the team is actually playing well. That will be a bridge that the team must cross once it gets there.

                  Comment


                  • LBF wrote: View Post
                    What are you on about? Colangelo never said anything about him being a franchise player and he's only been here half a season. The way your talking is like he's been here for years..

                    On the chance that you do get a "franchise" player. You need more than that.

                    The way your talking is like..trade everyone who's "good" on the team because they're not "franchise" players..

                    "Gay is over-paid"..So is the entire friggin league!

                    He's our best player. You don't just trade away your best player because "he's over-paid".

                    There's two ways you attract good players to come here. Championship contention or money. The raptors are not contenders. Therefore, they are going to have to pony up the cash and (over) pay for players, if they hope to go anywhere..

                    That's the way the world works. It doesn't matter if your a lawyer, doctor, mechanic, or pro athlete. You want someone good, your going to have to "over" pay them..

                    The money does not matter. It's what they give you in return for that money.

                    Gay gives us a great (elite?) wing player. Which we have not had in a damn long while..
                    its pretty obvious BC brought in gay to get that 'star/franchise' player despite stats saying otherwise. same with how derozan was marketed as the face of the team when bosh left.

                    me thinks you don't really understand CBA or proper value of players if you think 'the money does not matter'.
                    i think some fans are just desperate for ANY good player that they think once we have a good one, we have to keep them no matter the cost.

                    Comment


                    • iblastoff wrote: View Post
                      its pretty obvious BC brought in gay to get that 'star/franchise' player despite stats saying otherwise. same with how derozan was marketed as the face of the team when bosh left.

                      me thinks you don't really understand CBA or proper value of players if you think 'the money does not matter'.
                      i think some fans are just desperate for ANY good player that they think once we have a good one, we have to keep them no matter the cost.
                      Youve seen Gay for half a season.
                      Watch out next season when he has had a full training camp and chemistry with Val + Demar.

                      One thing that many posters here lack is a regard for consistency and what that does for a Teams' chemistry.
                      The Baltic Beast is unstoppable!

                      Comment


                      • enlightenment wrote: View Post
                        Youve seen Gay for half a season.
                        Watch out next season when he has had a full training camp and chemistry with Val + Demar.

                        One thing that many posters here lack is a regard for consistency and what that does for a Teams' chemistry.
                        When the pieces fit and the talent is there, yes, absolutely chemistry is important.

                        Comment


                        • iblastoff wrote: View Post
                          its pretty obvious BC brought in gay to get that 'star/franchise' player despite stats saying otherwise. same with how derozan was marketed as the face of the team when bosh left.

                          me thinks you don't really understand CBA or proper value of players if you think 'the money does not matter'.
                          i think some fans are just desperate for ANY good player that they think once we have a good one, we have to keep them no matter the cost.
                          I don't have to understand the CBA. I'm not a gm or front office member or whatever.

                          I'm a fan. I pay to go see good players play. I don't want to watch Steve fucking Novak, Marcus fucking Camby, Landry fucking Fields, Aaron fucking Gray, etc.

                          Nothing against these guys. But...

                          I want to see a star player! Rudy is a star player!

                          He puts asses in seats. Those guys don't..

                          I understand all the other shit like the CBA. But, do I need to or have to? As a fan? Fuck no!
                          If Your Uncle Jack Helped You Off An Elephant, Would You Help Your Uncle Jack Off An Elephant?

                          Sometimes, I like to buy a book on CD and listen to it, while reading music.

                          Comment


                          • Matt52 wrote: View Post
                            When the pieces fit and the talent is there, yes, absolutely chemistry is important.
                            You bring in more good players. You don't ship out the one good one you have. Unless you need to rebuild from scratch and the raptors don't.
                            If Your Uncle Jack Helped You Off An Elephant, Would You Help Your Uncle Jack Off An Elephant?

                            Sometimes, I like to buy a book on CD and listen to it, while reading music.

                            Comment


                            • Matt52 wrote: View Post
                              When the pieces fit and the talent is there, yes, absolutely chemistry is important.
                              Its a catch-22

                              How do you know that the pieces fit? Give them time and consistency. How do you know whether to give them time and consistency? You have to know that they fit!

                              Id say that there were 2, 5 game winning streaks that showed just how lethal the team can be when clicking. I think there were many more stretches that showed the flaw in our offensive sets and coordination. I think that the talent flourishes when given the chance, and that means giving the talent consistency to allow it to flourish.
                              The Baltic Beast is unstoppable!

                              Comment


                              • The goal is to win championships, you can't do that with Rudy as your star.

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