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Rebuild or Re-tool? (thread merge in post #358)

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  • blackjitsu wrote: View Post
    Cool story bro, didn't know that your name was Matt, Craiger.

    1. I never posted my opinion, I was merely pointing out that blaming management was not a legit point to dissuade his argument.

    Not my opinion, but if we're bringing up people like Warren Buffet-- look at how many times Buffet "wins" his investments (For instance grabbing GE on the cheap, reorganizing them and coming out smelling like roses). Buffet "wins" these kinds of investments regularly. Does Buffets wins make it impossible for other less skilled talents to have investment success?

    Now look how few NBA managers win titles. There are 4 maybe 5 active GM/Presidents who've won titles. Then throw out outlying characters like Dumars who have no right being called good. I guess you could throw in GMs like Bird who are consistently close as well.

    The criteria is titles, or the ability to create championship caliber teams. Winning a draft means nothing. There is zero talent in winning a lottery. The skill is in developing talent, surrounding talent, identifying who to keep and who to let go, knowing when to sell high and when to hold on to a falling talent, scouting for hidden gems... Just like the financial world, there are more bad GMs/Presidents than talented ones, however, there are outliers like Dumars, the Mavs staff, Ainge, etc. Even mediocre managers can learn to be patient, spot opportunities, and have moments of brilliance.

    As far as if talent stays, again, I didn't say anything so I have no clue where you THINK I was coming from. Has nothing to do with what I was saying-- if the draft pick wants money they stay for a portion of the 2nd contract; if they want to win they don't. I've talked about the difficulty in diving before in other threads...it takes years of preparation to dive and recover properly. Most managers are incapable of doing this, however, who's not to say that a bad GM learns from their mistakes.

    What do you do? Again I've made my suggestions in multiple threads. With the current team's construction the Raptors would be better to take the long route, try to make the playoffs multiple years, create value for their current assets and build a reputation as a team that values playing in the playoffs. Use that reputation to cherry pick talented free agents from bad teams who don't make playoffs, and slowly trade certain players when their value is at its height. Yes, this strategy is slow, not glamorous, and takes years to see the rewards beyond 1st round playoff wins...

    Why no to diving? Personal opinion. Both are legit strategies but one shows patience outwardly while another creates a temporary splash that appeases the public but depends on your draft pick being as patient as the GM. How many years did Dirk have to wait for a team to be built around him? To me that seems more likely than Shaq running to Wade. In the modern NBA are any "stars" that patient?

    Just because people disagree with diving doesn't mean they are huddled in a corner, and have quit on sports. What a hilarious illogical reach.

    Pretty sure you're incorrectly using the word fallacy. I am confident that both rationale are extremely sound. The point of debate is that there are multiple legitimate stances. Just because people disagree with you does not make their opinion less thought out. Since the only language in use on this thread is colloquial English I implore you to use the words you choose correctly.
    I guess this is the result of sticking my nose inside the bastions walls.

    Bold #1 - the hilarious illogical reach is coming to the conclusion that "people who disagree with diving are huddled in the corner and have to quit on sports" from what I said. Much like most of the paragraphs above it.

    Bold #2 - if you came to the conclusion that I was somehow saying because your opinion was different its less thought out, you are either completely missing the point or are being intentionally ignorant (see bold #1). How you form and argument is just as important as what you argue, no matter what form of language you use.

    And yes fallacy was the right word.

    Comment


    • I've been reading all the posts but not posting because I think we were having more constructive discussions on this over a month ago (~50 pages ago?), and that was when BC was still GM. Back then we didn't have any of the "I just want to win some games" people joining in.

      I think we should add a tagline to each poster so we have an idea of where they're coming from. It's kind of a waste of time to have one guy who wants to see the team build a winning franchise debate with a guy who is just happy to watch an exciting team, on the merits of rebuilding vs retooling.
      your pal,
      ebrian

      Comment


      • At this point I don't think it's going to matter if we actively re-tool or rebuild, we are likely a lottery team next season anyway.
        Heir, Prince of Cambridge

        If you see KeonClark in the wasteland, please share your food and water with him.

        Comment


        • ebrian wrote: View Post
          I've been reading all the posts but not posting because I think we were having more constructive discussions on this over a month ago (~50 pages ago?), and that was when BC was still GM. Back then we didn't have any of the "I just want to win some games" people joining in.

          I think we should add a tagline to each poster so we have an idea of where they're coming from. It's kind of a waste of time to have one guy who wants to see the team build a winning franchise debate with a guy who is just happy to watch an exciting team, on the merits of rebuilding vs retooling.
          An exciting team is a winning franchise.. awinning franchise is an exciting team.
          If Your Uncle Jack Helped You Off An Elephant, Would You Help Your Uncle Jack Off An Elephant?

          Sometimes, I like to buy a book on CD and listen to it, while reading music.

          Comment


          • http://sports.nationalpost.com/2013/...medium=twitter


            Nothing new hear but great read nonetheless.


            Good piece by Koreen summing up Raps current situation and paths they could take.

            Comment


            • Matt52 wrote: View Post
              http://sports.nationalpost.com/2013/...medium=twitter


              Nothing new hear but great read nonetheless.


              Good piece by Koreen summing up Raps current situation and paths they could take.
              Good read. Thanks Matt
              Heir, Prince of Cambridge

              If you see KeonClark in the wasteland, please share your food and water with him.

              Comment


              • i don't see the reason to move gay, yes we can get some good talent for him and his contract might be a bit big, but who cares. before we got him we lost games because we never had a 'closer', or the respect from the officials(remeber the time when we never got calls ). Rudy gay gives us those two points at the end of the games. without him demar cant take on that role because, everyone double teams him, and the second option was andrea (actually it was the other way around) since rudy's here he makes a big difference, unless we can get player who can close out games im not up to trading rudy.
                What they got to say now? Nothing they can say now. Mobbin' on the low. Winnin' on the low
                The city embraced me, made me feel at home. The only difference [between Compton and Toronto] for me is the cold. -DeMar
                No Where Near the South Side #WeTheNorth

                Comment


                • Time for Raptors to pick a future article

                  http://sports.nationalpost.com/2013/...pick-a-future/

                  Very good article overall. It examines our team from three different vantage points and sums up our options going forward. All three conclusions are legit, I’d argue some minor assessments, but that’s not the main point. All three models (and all others not listed in this article) involve risks; however, the preferred way forward is not necessarily the one that involves the least amount of risk… Looking around the recent moves around the league and taking into account the contracts ($ /length) certain players demand (and mostly achieve) – near max contracts for semi-talent, maybe the way forward is a hybrid of all three listed models. I mean, I’d not like to see us signing any of the guys involved in recent rumors and definitely not for the money they’ve negotiated! Having the financial flexibility (get rid of current bad contracts) to sign cheap, unproven potential is the key! Players like TRob that could be obtained on the cheap and ready to explode are the most important going forward but that implies patience… and some luck, just like any other “model”. Unfortunately, we are left with hopes for the likes of Julyan Stone for now, which means even more patience until we get rid of the numerous bad contracts on this team. And who knows, maybe Stone is a legit second unit PG… Reading the angry daily comments and listening to podcasts that demand Uriji to overhaul the entire roster in the first week on the job (with a claim that Raps fans have been living in misery for years… and the lack of signs where we are headed ) makes me think that someone here is going to get mad really quickly. Just look at the conclusions of all three models in the referenced article – we are positioned “Averagely” at best! It is going to take several years to become a real contender. Be patient, people.

                  Side note: Rockets GM, Daryl Morey is top notch! Just quickly go over his moves in Houston:
                  http://www.basketball-reference.com/...oreyda99x.html

                  He has made numerous amazing deals on the way to clearing cap space and assembling picks plus young talent, prior to the Harden trade last year. The notion that Houston was in a “nightmare situation” is wrong. There are a lot worse current “nightmares” in the league!

                  p.s.
                  How good does Presti look now after Martin has walked and Harden has exploded?! Can’t believe OKC could not find the money to keep the beard! In hind sight, Presti should have amnestied Perk, traded Ibaka or mortgaged his own salary… just to keep Harden!

                  p.p.s.
                  did not see you post a link first, Matt
                  Last edited by vino; Tue Jul 9, 2013, 01:46 PM.

                  Comment


                  • That was a very difficult issue to settle...prime one being a wealth of riches. They theoretically had 4 great players (KD, Westbrook, Ibaka and Harden) who all wanted to be paid. In addition there was Perkins who during this period was extended @ a good number. As we know there are cap limitations and in spite of this if I remember a good offer was made to Harden which he rejected leading me to believe there were other issues....wanting to be a starter/getting the ball more. Too bad.

                    Comment


                    • Bendit wrote: View Post
                      That was a very difficult issue to settle...prime one being a wealth of riches. They theoretically had 4 great players (KD, Westbrook, Ibaka and Harden) who all wanted to be paid. In addition there was Perkins who during this period was extended @ a good number. As we know there are cap limitations and in spite of this if I remember a good offer was made to Harden which he rejected leading me to believe there were other issues....wanting to be a starter/getting the ball more. Too bad.
                      I have confidence that should Toronto ever land those types of talent keeping them will not be an issue given the need for content by ownership and the fact they are filthy wealthy.

                      Comment


                      • Matt52 wrote: View Post
                        I have confidence that should Toronto ever land those types of talent keeping them will not be an issue given the need for content by ownership and the fact they are filthy wealthy.
                        Yes with TL talking up the spending. But even then with the new cba tax #s, even bringing the LAL into line (they are amnestying Metta @ 7.7 and saving 15 on taxes!) this will not be done as frivolously as in the past. The only blunt knife in the drawer will be Dolan with Prokhorov possibly a close second ...but then they have their personal feud as fuel....I hope they bludgeon each other with their dumb/shortsighted moves. I get the impression the cba is starting to work as intended putting an emphasis on scouting and making teams pay for their mistakes (as we are doing right now being nearly capped out and the overpaid personnel).

                        Comment


                        • Bendit wrote: View Post
                          Yes with TL talking up the spending. But even then with the new cba tax #s, even bringing the LAL into line (they are amnestying Metta @ 7.7 and saving 15 on taxes!) this will not be done as frivolously as in the past. The only blunt knife in the drawer will be Dolan with Prokhorov possibly a close second ...but then they have their personal feud as fuel....I hope they bludgeon each other with their dumb/shortsighted moves. I get the impression the cba is starting to work as intended putting an emphasis on scouting and making teams pay for their mistakes (as we are doing right now being nearly capped out and the overpaid personnel).
                          But keep in mind the Lakers are owned by the Buss family and their predominant source of income is the Lakers. Just from Jerry Buss' passing they are talking about selling an ownership stake to cover the estate taxes on the team. Yes, they have a huge TV deal but I think a family run business is going to have a different mindset than two multi-billion dollar corporations that have their hand in virtually every Canadian's pocket in one way or another.

                          Comment


                          • Infinity - on - 5: Whats next? (RR Main Page Rip Off)

                            http://www.raptorsrepublic.com/2013/...-5-whats-next/

                            Those main page guys have some pretty good ideas for threads. I'm blatantly going to steal the questions straight from the latest post on the main page.

                            A lot of the questions and ideas are topics that have been going on for quite some time throughout the main page, forums, media, Twitter, and in person.


                            Here goes:

                            1. Do the Raptors need to start over and rebuild?


                            2. What one player would you be unwilling to part with in a rebuild?


                            3. Is the next step for this team through trades, free agency or the draft?


                            4. What is the ceiling of the current team moving forward?


                            5. Would you be less inclined to watch a Raptors team next year that is rebuilding, again?

                            Comment


                            • Matt52 wrote: View Post
                              1. Do the Raptors need to start over and rebuild?
                              2. What one player would you be unwilling to part with in a rebuild?
                              3. Is the next step for this team through trades, free agency or the draft?
                              4. What is the ceiling of the current team moving forward?
                              5. Would you be less inclined to watch a Raptors team next year that is rebuilding, again?
                              1. Do the Raptors need to start over and rebuild?
                              Rebuild is continuous, you never stop so you shouldn't have to start it. We need to balance our roster better and acquire better shooters. I'm more inclined to tear apart the roster, so for the purpose of this question "rebuild".

                              2. What one player would you be unwilling to part with in a rebuild?
                              No one is untradeable. I'd trade JV for the right package, but he's the closest thing to untouchable.

                              3. Is the next step for this team through trades, free agency or the draft?
                              Trades are necessary to even be able to consider free agency. Assets are needed to speed up the draft progress. Therefore, trades are the logical next step.

                              4. What is the ceiling of the current team moving forward?
                              Current team as is, post-Barg's trade and Stone signing with no further moves, is likely somewhere between 7th-10th in the east. Health has to be a big concern especially at the PG spot with only the unproven Stone as a back-up to Lowry.

                              5. Would you be less inclined to watch a Raptors team next year that is rebuilding, again?
                              Nope. Not a chance.
                              Heir, Prince of Cambridge

                              If you see KeonClark in the wasteland, please share your food and water with him.

                              Comment


                              • Matt52 wrote: View Post
                                http://www.raptorsrepublic.com/2013/...-5-whats-next/

                                Those main page guys have some pretty good ideas for threads. I'm blatantly going to steal the questions straight from the latest post on the main page.

                                A lot of the questions and ideas are topics that have been going on for quite some time throughout the main page, forums, media, Twitter, and in person.


                                Here goes:

                                1. Do the Raptors need to start over and rebuild?


                                2. What one player would you be unwilling to part with in a rebuild?


                                3. Is the next step for this team through trades, free agency or the draft?


                                4. What is the ceiling of the current team moving forward?


                                5. Would you be less inclined to watch a Raptors team next year that is rebuilding, again?

                                1. No. They have some good pieces here. They need to build their team around Gay and JV.

                                2. JV

                                3. All of the Above.

                                4. 6-8 seed in the East.

                                5. Yes.

                                Not in favour of tanking because of the risk. Raps could finish with the worst record in the league and there's a good chance, actually a great chance they don't get Wiggins.
                                Mamba Mentality

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