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Rebuild or Re-tool? (thread merge in post #358)

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  • 1. Do the Raptors need to start over and rebuild?

    Undoubtedly, yes, since they never really have. People equate the Raptors having sucked for years with a "rebuild," but we didn't actually rebuild - it was a lot of BC running-in-place and little more. This is not a competitive playoff team as built; it has a lot of pieces that might fit generally in competitive playoff teams, but it is not a cohesive unit: we don't have many good defenders, we don't have many good perimeter shooters, etc. Basically if it is something you want in today's NBA other than Jonas, we're lacking. We have a lot of good go-to-the-rim players, but a team doesn't need a surplus of those.

    2. What one player would you be unwilling to part with in a rebuild?

    Given that Jonas is the obvious answer to this question, duh, but let's say Amir Johnson as well because Amir is a good, young, efficient player with a reasonable contract. He's not perfect (he's a bit undersized for a power forward and makes mistakes on D) but he's a good player and he loves Toronto and the fans love him. He's the heart of the team and you don't trade that for anything less than NBA gold, which we won't get for him.

    3. Is the next step for this team through trades, free agency or the draft?

    Combination of trades and the draft in the short term. Free agency is not presently an option because we're capped out, and if you trade away one piece to make room you're rebuilding the team anyway. If we trade Rudy away we create a ton of cap space, which can matter for sign-and-trades and key pieces in free agency.

    4. What is the ceiling of the current team moving forward?

    Right now? Probably the 7th playoff seed. Tops. And there's no guarantee we even get there.

    5. Would you be less inclined to watch a Raptors team next year that is rebuilding, again?

    Give me exciting young players to watch - players that make me think this team has an actual future - and the answer is yes. Probably I would be MORE inclined.

    Comment


    • 1. Do the Raptors need to start over and rebuild?

      Yes. The Raptors are a mess when looking at the landscape. No financial flexibility for 2 years unless one of the guys you are planning on competing with opts out (Bosh Part Deux). Gay, DD, and Fields are about 60% of the salary cap. All the main pieces on the team have flaws in one way or another. Outside of JV and Ross, any chance of improvement lies in players who have been in the league for 4+ years to become something up until now they have not been - Bargnani whispers in the wind anyone?

      2. What one player would you be unwilling to part with in a rebuild?

      JV. The Raptors have the hardest position in the league locked up for 7-8 more years. He comes from a country that eats, sleeps, and breathes basketball and has shown he has the same traits. As he matures the sky really is the limit.

      3. Is the next step for this team through trades, free agency or the draft?

      Trades. Hopefully the Raptors can exchange over priced pieces for value and picks. Much easier said than done but there are teams out there that are throwing big contracts at names. Well, the Raptors have some names.

      4. What is the ceiling of the current team moving forward?

      First round exit at best. 10-13th seed in the East most likely. The only two teams that can confidently be said are worse than Toronto moving forward are Orlando and Philadelphia.

      5. Would you be less inclined to watch a Raptors team next year that is rebuilding, again?

      No. I would be just as much if not more. I'd rather watch development than mediocrity.

      Comment


      • 1. Yes, they do. As of today, the team is a 7-11 seed but has spent all of their available cap room and mortgaged a good part of their future to do so. That's ugly, and the avenues to take the next step in improvement don't appear to be there.

        2. JV obviously.

        3. Trades this summer and next season. Draft oriented next summer.

        4. 7-11 seed next year.

        5. No. I don't see a big difference in entertainment value between watching a rebuilding product and a treadmill team.

        Comment


        • Axel above was pretty succint and I agree. As I have written before I would be quite happy being in a Boston position going forward. Never really had the confidence in the BC rebuild journey the last few years. Even now, we have yet to see even part of MU's hand and in a masochistic way it is quite exciting. I hope he doesnt disappoint with the next major move.

          ps...could we have a revision in the poll categs.? I hate the "Tanker" connotation. Suggestion: Rebuilder or even Rebuilder/Tanker. Thanks.

          Comment


          • Matt52 wrote: View Post
            http://www.raptorsrepublic.com/2013/...-5-whats-next/


            Here goes:

            1. Do the Raptors need to start over and rebuild?


            2. What one player would you be unwilling to part with in a rebuild?


            3. Is the next step for this team through trades, free agency or the draft?


            4. What is the ceiling of the current team moving forward?


            5. Would you be less inclined to watch a Raptors team next year that is rebuilding, again?
            1. Depends what you mean by start over. If its burn everything to the ground then NO. this is too drastic for a team this young, that's what i see NY doing if this year fails again. You need to identify who has a place on the team 4 years down the road and get rid of everyone else.

            2. Valanciunas is everything you hope a lottery pick to be, Talented, hard working, improving before your eyes at a position of need. There is no sense in trading valanciunas for the hope pf getting another version of him maybe at a different position. I wouldn't even trade him for Dwight Howard or Roy hibbert today because they would carry us in the 7-11 range every year. JV is the only untouchable but i would like to keep ross, Derozan, and Amir also. Everyone else can go i couldn't care less and they could all walk out within 2 seasons anyways so why invest much more in them ?

            3. Free agency is not option because of our cap situation and team reputation. Draft is always best when you have many of them but if you only have your own every year its a very slow process, so the first step is Trade to get picks or recently drafted players.

            4. IF everything goes right 5 seed with a first round exit. with good luck for us and bad luck for the others.

            5. Tell you the truth the only time where the raptors were pleasant to watch for competitive reasons was for a week after the rudy gay trade. other than that they looked like a rebuilding team the whole season. I found great pleasure in watching Valanciunas, Ed Davis, and Amir grow. (#FREEEDDAVIS) was hoping to see more from Ross. So i dont see what the problem is if we decide going with developing youth.

            Comment


            • 1. Do the Raptors need to start over and rebuild?

              No. I was one of the biggest 'tank commanders' two seasons ago, when JV was still playing in Europe - how great would it have been to have added Lillard or Barnes, instead of Ross? The team has some pieces to build with, has some tradeable assets and has an ownership group willing to spend; a blow-it-up rebuild isn't necessary. Significant retooling should suffice.

              2. What one player would you be unwilling to part with in a rebuild?

              Valanciunas.

              3. Is the next step for this team through trades, free agency or the draft?

              Trades immediately (for a combination of young talent and draft picks, not just salary dumps), hopefully followed by the 2014 draft.

              4. What is the ceiling of the current team moving forward?

              Barring any further roster moves, this team is stuck in a 7-team fight for 3 playoff spots (#6-8) in the Eastern Conference. First-round fodder at best, #12-14 draft pick at worst.

              5. Would you be less inclined to watch a Raptors team next year that is rebuilding, again?

              Yes, as long as there is a clear commitment to a specific long-term team-building strategy, which is faithfully adhered to. Indecision and trying to dabble in a rebuild while also having a desire to compete now, is the death knell for bubble teams.


              ---

              As for the poll, I'd pick something between 'tanker' and 'tweaker', since I think more than minor tweaks are needed, while extreme blow-it-up tanking is not an absolute necessity.
              Last edited by CalgaryRapsFan; Tue Jul 9, 2013, 03:59 PM.

              Comment


              • CalgaryRapsFan wrote: View Post
                1. Do the Raptors need to start over and rebuild?

                No. I was one of the biggest 'tank commanders' two seasons ago, when JV was still playing in Europe - how great would it have been to have added Lillard or Barnes, instead of Ross? The team has some pieces to build with, has some tradeable assets and an ownership group willing to spend; a blow-it-up rebuild isn't necessary. Significant retooling should suffice.
                Really good. That was tanking season for the Raptors. But it was about "building a winning culture" according to Casey.
                Mamba Mentality

                Comment


                • Already this thread is getting confusing because people have different ideas about what "start over and rebuild" means. I say yes, CalgaryRapsFan says no - but we both seem to agree that the next step is trading guys and getting good players in the 2014 draft.

                  I think we need to talk in more specifics, because the entire tank/rebuild debate basically boils down to one question:

                  "Should we trade Rudy Gay? If so, what should we reasonably expect to get for him in such a trade?"

                  Because we can talk about trading DeMar or Kyle or Landry Fields or whatever, but realistically, trading Rudy is the biggest bullet in our trade-gun.

                  Comment


                  • magoon wrote: View Post
                    Already this thread is getting confusing because people have different ideas about what "start over and rebuild" means. I say yes, CalgaryRapsFan says no - but we both seem to agree that the next step is trading guys and getting good players in the 2014 draft.

                    I think we need to talk in more specifics, because the entire tank/rebuild debate basically boils down to one question:

                    "Should we trade Rudy Gay? If so, what should we reasonably expect to get for him in such a trade?"

                    Because we can talk about trading DeMar or Kyle or Landry Fields or whatever, but realistically, trading Rudy is the biggest bullet in our trade-gun.
                    I agree.

                    To me, tanking and starting over would be taking a trade like the one Detroit offered, which clears $17M in salary and ensures this team finishes bottom-6 (at least) next season.

                    'Retooler' (somewhere between 'tanker' and 'tweaker') would be more like a modified Detroit trade, where young player(s) (Monroe, Drummond, Knight, KCP, etc..) and 1st round draft pick(s) are acquired, in addition to whatever expiring contracts are required to balance salaries. It's more of a retooling or reloading, rather than a complete rebuild or minor tweak.

                    I certainly didn't intend for semantics to derail the thread, which I think is a fantastic idea!

                    Comment


                    • CalgaryRapsFan wrote: View Post
                      To me, tanking and starting over would be taking a trade like the one Detroit offered, which clears $17M in salary and ensures this team finishes bottom-6 (at least) next season.
                      See, that's just it - all of the tankers here so far as I could see were completely in opposition to that trade because we weren't getting anything other than expiring salary. Nobody is advocating "trade everybody on the team for D-Leaguers and Euro-never-will-bes and get 7 wins next season." I don't care how many wins we get next season, frankly (I would prefer a lower lottery pick, certainly); I care that we take the real steps necessary to build a winning team, and the first step is getting rid of bloated contracts and getting some value out of them - be it picks or prospects we can develop immediately.

                      Comment


                      • 1. Do the Raptors need to start over and rebuild?

                        The team has serious flaws, and needs significant pieces. I call that a rebuild, not a "blow it up" situation. I think they move either Derozan or Gay. Maybe Lowry. So two out of the starting five. I think they look for credible young players and picks to come back.

                        2. What one player would you be unwilling to part with in a rebuild?

                        JV, for the reasons already mentioned. What is the likelihood of finding a center with his abilities within the next 3 years (who will have the skill set that he will have in three years) when the Raps should become serious players in the playoffs?


                        3. Is the next step for this team through trades, free agency or the draft?

                        Trades, for youth and picks, then drafting, then free agency to plug in the odd piece if required.


                        4. What is the ceiling of the current team moving forward?

                        Best of all possible worlds, no injuries and no stupid ref calls, 6-8. Realistically 8-9.


                        5. Would you be less inclined to watch a Raptors team next year that is rebuilding, again?

                        Not with Ujiri doing the rebuilding. Young guys running and growing together under Casey's watchful eye.

                        Comment


                        • CalgaryRapsFan wrote: View Post
                          I agree.

                          To me, tanking and starting over would be taking a trade like the one Detroit offered, which clears $17M in salary and ensures this team finishes bottom-6 (at least) next season.

                          'Retooler' (somewhere between 'tanker' and 'tweaker') would be more like a modified Detroit trade, where young player(s) (Monroe, Drummond, Knight, KCP, etc..) and 1st round draft pick(s) are acquired, in addition to whatever expiring contracts are required to balance salaries. It's more of a retooling or reloading, rather than a complete rebuild or minor tweak.

                          I certainly didn't intend for semantics to derail the thread, which I think is a fantastic idea!
                          I don't think I've encountered a single person who thought the Rudy Gay for Charlie V & Stuckey deal was a good idea, regardless of how steadfastly they supported a rebuild.

                          The idea isn't to start giving away starting calibre players for ten cents on the dollar just to try and win less than 15 games. It's about stockpiling resources - whether they be prospects, picks or financial flexibility - while improving your own 2014 draft pick in the process by decreasing the talent level on the floor in the short term. You also allow the young talent on your team to develop without a win now mandate.

                          Tanking, rebuilding, roster overhaul, major retooling, etc. You can call it a dozen different things. The major point is that we cease moving forward with a core of Gay/Lowry/DD and having the mentality that it's 8th seed or bust.
                          Last edited by Fully; Tue Jul 9, 2013, 04:29 PM.

                          Comment


                          • Since we did not make the playoffs in 5 years, I can see why the management might feel that we have no choice but to compete for the playoffs. Besides, 40 wins should be enough to make it. However, if you take a look at the competition in the East, with Miami, Indiana, Brooklyn and Chicago looking like locks to make the second round with New York being the only serious challenger, one can agree that it would make sense to rebuild.

                            Decision should be made based on moves available to compete or rebuild. But based on the fact that we have kept Casey who is not a good coach and traded Bargnani for expiring contracts, I feel that we are leaning toward rebuilding. That is the reason Detroit low balled us to Gay offer.

                            Comment


                            • lilmamba_ wrote: View Post
                              i don't see the reason to move gay, yes we can get some good talent for him and his contract might be a bit big, but who cares. before we got him we lost games because we never had a 'closer', or the respect from the officials(remeber the time when we never got calls ). Rudy gay gives us those two points at the end of the games. without him demar cant take on that role because, everyone double teams him, and the second option was andrea (actually it was the other way around) since rudy's here he makes a big difference, unless we can get player who can close out games im not up to trading rudy.
                              But unfortunately, he isn't a closer if you look closer. Most of his stats in the last 5 minutes of close games (within 5 points) are considerably lower than his overall stats. It's one of the myths about Gay here.

                              Comment


                              • Bendit wrote: View Post
                                That was a very difficult issue to settle...prime one being a wealth of riches. They theoretically had 4 great players (KD, Westbrook, Ibaka and Harden) who all wanted to be paid. In addition there was Perkins who during this period was extended @ a good number. As we know there are cap limitations and in spite of this if I remember a good offer was made to Harden which he rejected leading me to believe there were other issues....wanting to be a starter/getting the ball more. Too bad.
                                I don't know about other issues, but it was always said that Presti had a choice to make between Ibaka and Harden. They couldn't stay away from luxury tax and pay them both. He chose Ibaka (great shot blocker, but what else?) and gave Harden up for 3 bit pieces. I guess the shine of Presti's talent evaluation genius is starting to wear off, as it's a lot easier to find an Ibaka than it is to find a Harden.

                                Comment

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