Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Rebuild or Re-tool? (thread merge in post #358)

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Soft Euro wrote: View Post
    But unfortunately, he isn't a closer if you look closer. Most of his stats in the last 5 minutes of close games (within 5 points) are considerably lower than his overall stats. It's one of the myths about Gay here.
    but we need him, personally i haven't seen him choke or shy away, but even then he gets us the calls and respect from the officials and league, lowry, demar and jv dont get the same sorta respect and if were gonna move on without rudy, its gonna be difficult.

    most people say that if we leggo of rudy we can build around jv. most final/playoff caliber teams build around a closer, take the lakers, they had an option between shaq or kobe and they chose kobe, even though shaq went on to win another ring. why? .. because kobe could close out games even though shaq was good at keeping the other team out of the paint (like jv) and could score on the inside (like jv) and airballed free throws (unlike jv, i appreciate the fact that he can shoot free throws and his percentage is actually pretty high) but still i wouldnt chose to build a team around jonas valaciunas. (okc and dallas are some examples too)
    What they got to say now? Nothing they can say now. Mobbin' on the low. Winnin' on the low
    The city embraced me, made me feel at home. The only difference [between Compton and Toronto] for me is the cold. -DeMar
    No Where Near the South Side #WeTheNorth

    Comment


    • 1. Do the Raptors need to start over and rebuild?
      That depends on your definition of rebuild, but probably. We need more talent, and we need to have more talent at a better value than we currently have. The most sure fire way to get equal or better talent at a better value is through the draft/young talent, that sounds like a rebuild to me.

      2. What one player would you be unwilling to part with in a rebuild?
      Even in a rebuild JV is untouchable so I go with Amir Johnson

      3. Is the next step for this team through trades, free agency or the draft?
      Short term trades, but I see trades involving picks coming TO Toronto not OUT, so it'll be DRAFT long term.

      4. What is the ceiling of the current team moving forward?
      As is, I would say we have a 1 in 100 chance of getting out of the first round and 0 out of 100000000000000 chance of getting to the conference finals.

      So for me the realistic ceiling is making the playoffs with a first round exit.

      5. Would you be less inclined to watch a Raptors team next year that is rebuilding, again?

      Being in Africa, and the sh!tty internet that goes w/ it, as well as the time zone difference makes it difficult to watch the raps regardless of how good they are. In fact, i'd (almost) prefer them to be crappy now, and amazing in a year or two when I'm back in Canada. However, they probably shouldn't make roster decisions based on me.

      I'm starting to feel like a broken record but...
      I also can't answer the tank or tweak poll because I fundamentally disagree that you can say one is better than the other. If I'm the GM I'm trying to evaluate what talent I can get and at what value if I tweak, vs. the talent I can get at what value if I tank. The answers to these questions are determined by the MARKET which fluctuates. You don't go into a season saying tweak or tank, you evaluate the what realistic value:talent ratio you can acquire using that strategy over the course of the year and you PICK the course of action that nets you the best talent:value ratio. The best option is to see how you can get the best value:talent ration from the market. If that's by tanking now, then tank now, if that's by tweaking now, than tweak now, if that's by tweaking this season but tanking next season than do that.

      Asset management and reading the market is more beneficial than philosophical dichotomies like "tank" or "don't tank", and I think which way the raptors go depends on how Ujiri thinks he can best maximize that value:talent ratio.
      Last edited by ezz_bee; Tue Jul 9, 2013, 07:14 PM.
      "They're going to have to rename the whole conference after us: Toronto Raptors 2014-2015 Northern Conference Champions" ~ ezzbee Dec. 2014

      "I guess I got a little carried away there" ~ ezzbee Apr. 2015

      "We only have one rule on this team. What is that rule? E.L.E. That's right's, E.L.E, and what does E.L.E. stand for? EVERYBODY LOVE EVERYBODY. Right there up on the wall, because this isn't just a basketball team, this is a lifestyle. ~ Jackie Moon

      Comment


      • lilmamba_ wrote: View Post
        but we need him, personally i haven't seen him choke or shy away, but even then he gets us the calls and respect from the officials and league, lowry, demar and jv dont get the same sorta respect and if were gonna move on without rudy, its gonna be difficult.

        most people say that if we leggo of rudy we can build around jv. most final/playoff caliber teams build around a closer, take the lakers, they had an option between shaq or kobe and they chose kobe, even though shaq went on to win another ring. why? .. because kobe could close out games even though shaq was good at keeping the other team out of the paint (like jv) and could score on the inside (like jv) and airballed free throws (unlike jv, i appreciate the fact that he can shoot free throws and his percentage is actually pretty high) but still i wouldnt chose to build a team around jonas valaciunas. (okc and dallas are some examples too)
        Rudy Gay hasn't shown a lot of this, at least if we look at this year. His combined (Memphis and Toronto) clutch stats according to nba.com for this year: 95 minutes, only 10 freethrows (not a lot of calls), shooting 22 of 63 (1/8 on threepointers) for a total of 54 points on 63 shots. Bargnani would be ashamed of those stats.

        I also think a lot of the closer stuff is overrated because we tend to remember the makes. Some of the so-called closers don't have very impressive clutch stats and miss a lot of gamewinners as well; they just take zillions of shots in clutch time and the makes make the highlights.

        Comment


        • Fully wrote: View Post
          I don't think I've encountered a single person who thought the Rudy Gay for Charlie V & Stuckey deal was a good idea, regardless of how steadfastly they supported a rebuild.

          The idea isn't to start giving away starting calibre players for ten cents on the dollar just to try and win less than 15 games. It's about stockpiling resources - whether they be prospects, picks or financial flexibility - while improving your own 2014 draft pick in the process by decreasing the talent level on the floor in the short term. You also allow the young talent on your team to develop without a win now mandate.

          Tanking, rebuilding, roster overhaul, major retooling, etc. You can call it a dozen different things. The major point is that we cease moving forward with a core of Gay/Lowry/DD and having the mentality that it's 8th seed or bust.

          WE HAVE A WINNER!

          A simple like was not sufficient enough. If the Raptors are trading away any of the pieces that give people ammunition to support making a playoff push then you are getting real assets (genuine NBA players on rookie deals, prospects who might be buried on a bench, and draft picks) in addition to flexibility (expirings) in return. Gay for CV and Stuckey was a farce no matter which side of the fence you sit on.

          Comment


          • p00ka wrote: View Post
            I don't know about other issues, but it was always said that Presti had a choice to make between Ibaka and Harden. They couldn't stay away from luxury tax and pay them both. He chose Ibaka (great shot blocker, but what else?) and gave Harden up for 3 bit pieces. I guess the shine of Presti's talent evaluation genius is starting to wear off, as it's a lot easier to find an Ibaka than it is to find a Harden.
            Yet apparently they were only about 4.5 mill. apart on what Harden supposedly refused to budge on. Presti could have even have deferred the decision until after the season I believe (unless I am missing something) as Harden would be a rfa and OKC would still have right of match alongwith a more sober approach with time to move pieces (Ibaka) and amnestying (Perkins) plus getting a crack at the title. Re Presti's talent eval. genius his pick of Aldrich was also a scratcher and Perkins (?). Cant draw aces everytime I suppose. Here is a decent piece on all the machinations regarding the Harden move:

            http://www.grantland.com/story/_/id/...ouston-rockets

            Comment


            • Bendit wrote: View Post
              Yet apparently they were only about 4.5 mill. apart on what Harden supposedly refused to budge on. Presti could have even have deferred the decision until after the season I believe (unless I am missing something) as Harden would be a rfa and OKC would still have right of match alongwith a more sober approach with time to move pieces (Ibaka) and amnestying (Perkins) plus getting a crack at the title. Re Presti's talent eval. genius his pick of Aldrich was also a scratcher and Perkins (?). Cant draw aces everytime I suppose. Here is a decent piece on all the machinations regarding the Harden move:

              http://www.grantland.com/story/_/id/...ouston-rockets
              Thought presti had durant and westbrook not maxed so they could keep the team together and harden wanted max money.

              Presti hasnt lost his talent evaluation, harden was that good in OC, he just came off the bench and didnt get 35+ minutes a night. They got everything they wanted from that trade. Havent seen pj3 play much, who knows how he develops, 2 durants are better than one. Lamb still has a lot of potential as the 2 guard as well. Maybe this year we see him get a minute.

              Because OC doesnt suck they dont develop their young guys by playing 20+ minutes a night, but that doesnt mean they arent developing them.

              This is a trade where if OC gets a championship they made the right decision but if they dont, then they missed the chance.

              Comment


              • Great thread, man.

                BTW, Valanciunas might be the most consistent answer.

                Comment


                • lilmamba_ wrote: View Post
                  but we need him, personally i haven't seen him choke or shy away, but even then he gets us the calls and respect from the officials and league, lowry, demar and jv dont get the same sorta respect and if were gonna move on without rudy, its gonna be difficult.

                  most people say that if we leggo of rudy we can build around jv. most final/playoff caliber teams build around a closer, take the lakers, they had an option between shaq or kobe and they chose kobe, even though shaq went on to win another ring. why? .. because kobe could close out games even though shaq was good at keeping the other team out of the paint (like jv) and could score on the inside (like jv) and airballed free throws (unlike jv, i appreciate the fact that he can shoot free throws and his percentage is actually pretty high) but still i wouldnt chose to build a team around jonas valaciunas. (okc and dallas are some examples too)
                  Wow i'm impressed, you know more than i thought you did. Good work! you deserve a high five

                  Comment


                  • high five?? where you going i deserve a gold star
                    What they got to say now? Nothing they can say now. Mobbin' on the low. Winnin' on the low
                    The city embraced me, made me feel at home. The only difference [between Compton and Toronto] for me is the cold. -DeMar
                    No Where Near the South Side #WeTheNorth

                    Comment


                    • lilmamba_ wrote: View Post
                      high five?? where you going i deserve a gold star
                      Haha, i was thinking that. But i thought you'd feel insulted because that's usually what they give 5 year olds in Kindergarten

                      Comment


                      • NoPropsneeded wrote: View Post
                        Haha, i was thinking that. But i thought you'd feel insulted because that's usually what they give 5 year olds in Kindergarten
                        your never to old for a gold star -.-
                        What they got to say now? Nothing they can say now. Mobbin' on the low. Winnin' on the low
                        The city embraced me, made me feel at home. The only difference [between Compton and Toronto] for me is the cold. -DeMar
                        No Where Near the South Side #WeTheNorth

                        Comment


                        • lilmamba_ wrote: View Post
                          your never to old for a gold star -.-
                          Maybe

                          Comment


                          • Soft Euro wrote: View Post
                            Rudy Gay hasn't shown a lot of this, at least if we look at this year. His combined (Memphis and Toronto) clutch stats according to nba.com for this year: 95 minutes, only 10 freethrows (not a lot of calls), shooting 22 of 63 (1/8 on threepointers) for a total of 54 points on 63 shots. Bargnani would be ashamed of those stats.

                            I also think a lot of the closer stuff is overrated because we tend to remember the makes. Some of the so-called closers don't have very impressive clutch stats and miss a lot of gamewinners as well; they just take zillions of shots in clutch time and the makes make the highlights.
                            as soon as rudy got to toronto, there was a different vibe in the locker room and acc (even though i wasn't there you could tell)
                            this team is a better team knowing that there a better team. everyone started to play better. lowry made some clutch shots vs the knicks and the rudy gay and amir Johnson game vs the pacers, demar and even anderson started to play well. to sum it up we need rudy gay it doesnt matter if were over paying him, he'll be the one guarding lebron in the first round of the playoffs next season.
                            What they got to say now? Nothing they can say now. Mobbin' on the low. Winnin' on the low
                            The city embraced me, made me feel at home. The only difference [between Compton and Toronto] for me is the cold. -DeMar
                            No Where Near the South Side #WeTheNorth

                            Comment


                            • NoPropsneeded wrote: View Post
                              Maybe
                              carmelo gets nothing but gold star and hes 29
                              What they got to say now? Nothing they can say now. Mobbin' on the low. Winnin' on the low
                              The city embraced me, made me feel at home. The only difference [between Compton and Toronto] for me is the cold. -DeMar
                              No Where Near the South Side #WeTheNorth

                              Comment


                              • lilmamba_ wrote: View Post
                                as soon as rudy got to toronto, there was a different vibe in the locker room and acc (even though i wasn't there you could tell)
                                this team is a better team knowing that there a better team. everyone started to play better. lowry made some clutch shots vs the knicks and the rudy gay and amir Johnson game vs the pacers, demar and even anderson started to play well. to sum it up we need rudy gay it doesnt matter if were over paying him, he'll be the one guarding lebron in the first round of the playoffs next season.
                                That's one of the big things that makes Gay a good risk to re-sign at a good price. When playing even near his ability, he's one of the few guys around that has the height, length and skills to guard the likes of LeBron, KD, George, as well as make them work on defence. If you're ever going to get anywhere in the playoffs for the next 10 years, you have to go through them.

                                Comment

                                Working...
                                X