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Rebuild or Re-tool? (thread merge in post #358)

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  • BobLoblaw wrote: View Post
    Champions of Our Hearts 2014.
    If they get to the second round, no doubt


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    • Here's what I wonder... if Kyle Lowry does walk, what the heck do you do? Do you move Demar and start the tank or do you try to retool?
      It’s Ogugua season. Time to gugua.

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      • Scraptor wrote: View Post
        Here's what I wonder... if Kyle Lowry does walk, what the heck do you do? Do you move Demar and start the tank or do you try to retool?
        I'm not sure they'd need to move DeMar to tank. I think Lowry is too important for this team and tanking would happen naturally.

        I guess Ujiri could try going after Isaiah Thomas. Given the Kings' proximity to tax line, he's a viable target. If that doesn't work, just stand pat. If someone overpays for DeMar (something like the Hornets overpaid for Jrue Holiday), trade him. Otherwise go into the season with him and see what happens. Most likely a colossal shit storm of a season.

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        • How high do you think DeRozans value is? Every time I watch a game with the opponents commentators they always talk about how he's such a great player, they praise is work ethic, how he can get to the line and more

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          • mcHAPPY wrote: View Post
            And if the Raps win their next 4 you'll hear them again while the tanks grind to a halt - lol

            Everyone is swinging their d!ck when very recent history shows they are right. Remember after the Philly game? Utah?


            This is just a bad team - bottom line.
            What a difference 6 days made.


            Interesting read on the "tank vs. no tank debate" with a "What if?" article:

            http://hoopshabit.com/2014/08/18/toronto-raptors-tank/

            Money shot:

            Maybe they win the lottery and get the Canadian shining star. But would Valanciunas and Wiggins and whatever they got in those trades really move the needle more than what they have planted right now? At some point, people become deaf to the idea that “yes, we’re struggling, but in three years….” The Raptors abandoned that narrative when things finally aligned, even if they didn’t intend for them to align. I like their current course.


            Here is my perception of situation, the Raptors have everything at their disposal that 'tankers' wanted:
            1) a young core,
            2) young prospects, (Bruno and Bebe)
            3) draft picks (own all 1st round picks plus lower of Knicks/Nuggets in 2016)
            4) financial flexibility next summer and possibly 2016
            5) no ceiling in sight as of yet (certainly not condemned to purgatory/Atlanta yet).

            For the non-tankers among us, they get what they always wanted: to be competitive.



            It truly is the best of both worlds.... especially if you think Bruno has the upside of a high lottery pick and JV might be an All-Star C!




            Tankers and non-tankers walking hand in hand!

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            • mcHAPPY wrote: View Post
              What a difference 6 days made.


              Interesting read on the "tank vs. no tank debate" with a "What if?" article:

              http://hoopshabit.com/2014/08/18/toronto-raptors-tank/

              Money shot:





              Here is my perception of situation, the Raptors have everything at their disposal that 'tankers' wanted:
              1) a young core,
              2) young prospects, (Bruno and Bebe)
              3) draft picks (own all 1st round picks plus lower of Knicks/Nuggets in 2016)
              4) financial flexibility next summer and possibly 2016
              5) no ceiling in sight as of yet (certainly not condemned to purgatory/Atlanta yet).

              For the non-tankers among us, they get what they always wanted: to be competitive.



              It truly is the best of both worlds.... especially if you think Bruno has the upside of a high lottery pick and JV might be an All-Star C!
              Not the type of young prospects I would've hoped for if the Raptors tanked..

              It's not so bad to be Atlanta. They got a ton of crap, but it's in large part because they were a boring team, and in large part because people compared them to what they could've been (they picked Marvin Williams and Shelden Williams instead of CP3 and Brandon Roy).

              But it's good to be around 50 wins. They had 53 wins, 47 wins, 40 wins in the lockout year which is like 50 in a normal year. They had a lot of bad luck with injuries too. With some better luck and better coaching they might've made a few conference finals and then you never know what happens.

              If the Raptors can build as talented a core as those Hawks teams plus better coaching and hopefully better health, it's a good place to be.

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              • Ah, an oldie but a goodie. What a thread.
                Heir, Prince of Cambridge

                If you see KeonClark in the wasteland, please share your food and water with him.

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                • mcHAPPY wrote: View Post
                  What a difference 6 days made.


                  Interesting read on the "tank vs. no tank debate" with a "What if?" article:

                  http://hoopshabit.com/2014/08/18/toronto-raptors-tank/

                  Money shot:





                  Here is my perception of situation, the Raptors have everything at their disposal that 'tankers' wanted:
                  1) a young core,
                  2) young prospects, (Bruno and Bebe)
                  3) draft picks (own all 1st round picks plus lower of Knicks/Nuggets in 2016)
                  4) financial flexibility next summer and possibly 2016
                  5) no ceiling in sight as of yet (certainly not condemned to purgatory/Atlanta yet).

                  For the non-tankers among us, they get what they always wanted: to be competitive.



                  It truly is the best of both worlds.... especially if you think Bruno has the upside of a high lottery pick and JV might be an All-Star C!




                  Tankers and non-tankers walking hand in hand!
                  So you're saying that tankers got what they wanted without tanking? Isn't that what some anti-tankers contended all along? In such a short time, the team is in a good place. With a little luck, and hard work from the young bucks, it'll be in an even better place before long! We all should feel good about the organization choosing to not cheat the game, but build through smarts and hard work. Go Raptors!!

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                  • chico wrote: View Post
                    So you're saying that tankers got what they wanted without tanking? Isn't that what some anti-tankers contended all along? In such a short time, the team is in a good place. With a little luck, and hard work from the young bucks, it'll be in an even better place before long! We all should feel good about the organization choosing to not cheat the game, but build through smarts and hard work. Go Raptors!!
                    p00, er, salm, er, chico I didn't realize you were on the forums back then.

                    You can see what I said above. No need to paraphrase. It is all there.

                    The team is in a good place but even Masai acknowledges it is luck they for there.

                    No question the luck needs to continue to roll.

                    As for the cheating the game comment, it is only cheating when you break rules. Tanking is a strategy like any other. You might not like it or agree with it but it is a strategy that has merits and faults like any other.

                    Building a team is such an I exact science. I love listening to masai due to his humility and acknowledgement of this. But obviously there is more to it than throwing shit against the wall and hoping it sticks too.....hence the welcomed humility on masai's part.

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                    • BobLoblaw wrote: View Post
                      Not the type of young prospects I would've hoped for if the Raptors tanked..

                      It's not so bad to be Atlanta. They got a ton of crap, but it's in large part because they were a boring team, and in large part because people compared them to what they could've been (they picked Marvin Williams and Shelden Williams instead of CP3 and Brandon Roy).

                      But it's good to be around 50 wins. They had 53 wins, 47 wins, 40 wins in the lockout year which is like 50 in a normal year. They had a lot of bad luck with injuries too. With some better luck and better coaching they might've made a few conference finals and then you never know what happens.

                      If the Raptors can build as talented a core as those Hawks teams plus better coaching and hopefully better health, it's a good place to be.
                      And on top of obvious draft foibles, Atlanta did a piss poor job building a balanced team. They lacked depth, versatility in their roster, and most of the pieces they had didn't actually fit together that well, but they never were willing to risk a big move to try and improve the team. And most of the youth they had was concentrated at the 2-4 positions (counting Horford as a natural 4 who's been forced to play out of his natural position his whole career).

                      I'm way more optimistic about Toronto. Way more balance on the roster with a true C, a good PG, and tons of combinations of skill sets with the guys in the positions between. And obviously good depth. And on top of it all, youth at pretty much every position except PG, meaning they have the ability to keep improving while keeping a young core. And Masai has already shown he's not afraid of making a big change if he doesn't like the way things are working with the roster, so there's little chance that if we start looking like we're on the Atlanta treadmill (ie perennial 3-6 seed with no real chance to contend) Masai will let it continue for 5-6 years before doing something.

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                      • mcHAPPY wrote: View Post
                        p00, er, salm, er, chico I didn't realize you were on the forums back then.

                        You can see what I said above. No need to paraphrase. It is all there.

                        The team is in a good place but even Masai acknowledges it is luck they for there.

                        No question the luck needs to continue to roll.

                        As for the cheating the game comment, it is only cheating when you break rules. Tanking is a strategy like any other. You might not like it or agree with it but it is a strategy that has merits and faults like any other.

                        Building a team is such an I exact science. I love listening to masai due to his humility and acknowledgement of this. But obviously there is more to it than throwing shit against the wall and hoping it sticks too.....hence the welcomed humility on masai's part.
                        "p00, er, salm, er"

                        errrr, keeping up this boogieman ghost rhetoric when a guy says something that doesn't fit your narrative? Pity. You seem like such a nice guy until then. Whatever you went through with these dudes, for your sake, please try and get over it, and live in the present.

                        "chico I didn't realize you were on the forums back then."

                        Perhaps because I was nothing but a part time lurker that hadn't taken the jump to register and post yet? It happens. One doesn't need 19,000 posts to read here.

                        "The team is in a good place but even Masai acknowledges it is luck they for there."

                        That ends with some other language, but I think I know what you mean. Some luck is involved no matter what route is taken, so not sure what the point is.

                        "As for the cheating the game comment, it is only cheating when you break rules."

                        Pity you feel that way. I wasn't talking about breaking written rules, but talking about the concept of sport being about competing, and an organization honouring that instead of purposely losing/being bad as a strategy. I see "the game" as something more than rules, and I'm sorry if that confuses the point.

                        Geezuz man, you posted your hand-holding comment, and I responded with a simple, and logical, take on it. Calm down.

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                        • Beauty of this topic is; neither side can really claim to be correct. Unless the Raps or a Another team lead by a 2014 draft pick win in the next few years, it will be impossible to connect the dots as coming from one strategy or the other.
                          Heir, Prince of Cambridge

                          If you see KeonClark in the wasteland, please share your food and water with him.

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                          • Or maybe that is iman

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                            • white men can't jump wrote: View Post
                              And on top of obvious draft foibles, Atlanta did a piss poor job building a balanced team. They lacked depth, versatility in their roster, and most of the pieces they had didn't actually fit together that well, but they never were willing to risk a big move to try and improve the team. And most of the youth they had was concentrated at the 2-4 positions (counting Horford as a natural 4 who's been forced to play out of his natural position his whole career).

                              I'm way more optimistic about Toronto. Way more balance on the roster with a true C, a good PG, and tons of combinations of skill sets with the guys in the positions between. And obviously good depth. And on top of it all, youth at pretty much every position except PG, meaning they have the ability to keep improving while keeping a young core. And Masai has already shown he's not afraid of making a big change if he doesn't like the way things are working with the roster, so there's little chance that if we start looking like we're on the Atlanta treadmill (ie perennial 3-6 seed with no real chance to contend) Masai will let it continue for 5-6 years before doing something.
                              I liked how Larry Drew played Horford and Smith together in their last year. A ton of big man to big man pick and roll. He really took advantage of their passing ability and showed potential of that combo. They are both such a mismatch for other teams.

                              I like Horford at center, even if he may not love it himself. He's a powerful tough guy, a little undersized, but he's stronger than most centers in the league. His shooting, ball handing and passing is a great skillset for a center. If he had better post up game, I might prefer him at PF. Combine his length, power and a good post up game, and he would be a devastating PF. Maybe if he was a PF from the start, he would've developed that part of his game better, who knows. But right now I think he's a two-positional guy, a versatile player, but more dangerous at center.

                              I also like Josh Smith at center in some matchups. I like that Smith and Horford were interchangeable in some matchups. Overall, that Smith-Horford combination has a lot of passing, mobility, ball handling, it's hard to guard, and it provides good defense. Neither can guard someone like Pekovic well, but most "true" centers can't really guard someone like that either.

                              I think their biggest problem was coaching. In principle, I think Joe Johnson, Smith and Horford trio could work very well. Larry Drew figured out the Horford-Smith combo after they traded Joe Johnson, but that was too little and too late. Most of the years they played like a throwback early 2000s team. A lot of chucking, a lot of isos.

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                              • We did tank, for the last 4 years (before this season). So it's all good.

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