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  • #46
    the resistance to a proper tear down and rebuild is astounding to me as teams in similar situations that have done so successfully since bosh left have fucking lapped us.

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    • #47
      Lefty wrote: View Post
      One, that's what more and more teams are doing. Boston, Philly, Charlotte, the Pistons, Bucks, Magic, Hawks, Suns, maybe the Kings all look like they will be incredibly crappy next year.
      The Pistons clearly don't intend to tank - they're making a serious play for Andre Iguodala, which is the opposite of a tank move. The Bucks are openly shopping for a quality SG to replace Monta Ellis and have all but declared they're going to offer Brandon Jennings a max deal; it doesn't look like they're tanking either, because if they were they'd just start Giannis Alphabethands at SG and give him burn. And Atlanta is too soon to call; they have a ton of cap space and the opportunity to buy free agents, So we're down to seven, and the Magic probably aren't going to tank purposefully - they're in the later stages of a rebuild and it doesn't make sense for them.

      The second problem is that when you tank, you trade your players for assets. Almost none of our players, aside for Lowry, who won't fetch much, and JV, who is basically untouchable, are valued. Why? Because they all suck, or they are overpaid, or both. Colangelo really screwed Ujiri over.
      You're forgetting the other option, which is "remove other teams' problems." See Dallas openly offering their #13 last week to anybody who was willing to take Shawn Marion's contract off their hands. There's going to be more of that, as contending teams do their best to strip out the parts they don't need or can't use. Dallas, Houston, Golden State, Washington, Utah, OKC, Chicago - even Sacramento, Charlotte and Phoenix all have players they really want to unload. Some of these players we might actively want (probably anybody Houston needs to ditch). Some of them we don't want, but are expiring deals, so at least we're freeing up cap space (Biedrins and Jefferson, John Salmons and Travis Outlaw). Some of them are on teams who are planning to contend and might send us a pick for taking their trash because it'll only be a late first-rounder anyway. Some of them are on teams who have good young players who aren't getting minutes and could feasibly be sent along.

      Like, this is feasible: Amir Johnson to OKC for Kendrick Perkins and some combination of Jeremy Lamb, Perry Jones III and OKC's first-rounder this year. Because OKC really, really wants Perkins gone - his contract is problematic, and he's lousy. Is it worth it to sign him on (and flip him as expiring salary in 2014-15) and get some good young players with high upside who aren't getting burn in OKC, or OKC's first rounder? Like I've said - I don't want to ditch Amir, but unless OKC does this sort of deal for Aaron Gray for some reason I can't understand, I think he makes the deal work.

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      • #48
        I don't like tanking, mainly because if you DO end up being the worst team in the league, you only get a 25% chance at picking first.

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        • #49
          chris wrote: View Post
          hey man name one championship team built with late lottery picks and terrible contracts
          Fallacy of Bifurcation (false dichotomy) -> "two alternative statements are held to be the only possible options, when in reality there are more."

          Obviously there are many other ways to win a championship, you have not regarded the original argument which asks, "which teams have one championships through tanking"
          The Baltic Beast is unstoppable!

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          • #50
            enlightenment wrote: View Post
            Obviously there are many other ways to win a championship, you have not regarded the original argument which asks, "which teams have one championships through tanking"
            Your definition of tanking is attaining the #1 pick, our definition of tanking is getting a pick that has a high chance of leading to a franchise player, unless you're saying KD isn't a franchise players, or MJ, etc. So do not try to reply to this with the "only 2 players drafted #1 have won with their team blah blah, Tim Duncan, SA" which seems to be the default response by all of you...

            Also, it's about winning champions obviously, but instead of looking at teams that have won championships, you should look at how many teams are, or have, competed FOR A CHAMPIONSHIP (I laugh when people say the Raptors can compete.. for a playoff spot) via tanking? A lot of the teams who tanked for their next superstar franchise players (Whether they got him at #1 or not is irrelevant), had success and CHAMPIONSHIP goals within the next 5 years. NOT JUST PLAYOFF GOALS

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            • #51
              The value of a 2014 1st rounder (projected lottery) is very high right now because of a loaded draft class & the new CBA that puts a premium on smart cap management. A lot of teams are gearing up for the 2014 Draft which makes it difficult to acquire one. As it stands right now, there is no combination on our team (outside of Valanciunas & our own 2014 pick) that can get a projected lottery pick.

              Philadelphia had to give up an all-star (Jrue Holiday -- still young) to acquire Noel & a 2014 pick (which could or could not be a lottery selection). We have no all-star, we are capped out, we are projected to compete for a playoff spot as it stands -- so our pick is middle of the road, we have few young assets in their rookie contract, etc. Basically, we are not in a position to compete for those 14 lottery selections next year because our assets are not very attractive + we don't have room to absorb contracts unless we ship out some of our players.

              We actually have no choice but to use our situation the smartest way possible, as it stands, to maximize our chances going forward. We finished close to a playoff spot last year & Boston/Philly has shown signs of taking a step back. Atlanta & Milwaukee's situations are very cloudy at the moment. We have a good chance of making the playoffs next year, but before you argue "fool's gold," I have some arguments ....

              (1) Imagine a playoff appearance next year. Without arguing the effect on fan base, etc. -- our roster would look a lot more attractive next summer (Rudy Gay 1 year left; Landry Fields 1 year left; Amir Johnson 1 year left; Andrea Bargnani 1 year left; Jonas Valanciunas 1 year of development; Terrence Ross 1 year of development (** No guarantees with Ross & JV -- there is a chance that they stink up their careers for whatever reason). Add in the fact that the possibility of having an all-star (as a result of the higher rankings), our assets are suddenly more attractive to other teams.

              (2) Regardless of calling the season fool's gold, you are now in a position to leverage your season's "success" in negotiations with other teams. For example, if we have an all-star in Gay (because he is our leading scorer who led us to our first playoff appearance in 6 years -- yay), we can perhaps be in a better position to acquire a lottery pick, a young asset, a future core piece, a better player, etc. should we decide that he can't take us any further than the 1st round. Our chances of landing a pick (even a 2014 lottery) is higher than whatever chances we have right now.

              What I'm saying is timing is everything & as of right now, our situation dictates that we go for the playoffs because it is the smarter thing to do than getting less for your assets right now coming off a disappointing season. The NBA is very trendy but it constantly changes. Having a smart management team is very important if your franchise wants any type of long-term success. I'm hoping for better asset management with our new staff & I am content not seeing massive changes at once. I simply don't want a repeat of our mistakes (like being content with our core long-term, handling cap space, etc. -- & we have a new set of people running the franchise (from owners to management). So I'm banking on that .... for now.


              -- Charles Barkley

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              • #52
                enlightenment wrote: View Post
                Fallacy of Bifurcation (false dichotomy) -> "two alternative statements are held to be the only possible options, when in reality there are more."

                Obviously there are many other ways to win a championship, you have not regarded the original argument which asks, "which teams have one championships through tanking"
                Actually there are only a handful of ways to win a title. Only Miami, Dallas, Houston, San Antonio, Celtics, Lakers, Bulls,and Detroit have won titles in my life time. A little further back you can include Sixers, Bucks, and Portland but that's reaching back to the 60s/70s for some of those when there wasn't at or close to 30 teams. Modern era there are only 8 teams who've won titles using 3 or 4 methods.

                1. Team built around a single star who matures.
                2. A team of talented but unheralded vets who wanted to win.
                3. Star players joining forces to get an elusive title.

                Notice how all those methods involve veteran players. One of those methods involves veteran players being together for a period of time before figuring out how to win together. Young teams usually fail. Bad GMs tear apart good young teams instead of letting them go through the maturing process. Good GMs do the opposite. Obviously free agency has an effect as well...

                When looking at trades that have led to titles we can look at Rodman, the Celtic trio, Chandler to the Mavs, etc. What do these all have in common? They're vets with known skill sets.

                In other words, if you want to create a championship team surround your core/star with consistent veterans that have quantitative skills. I suspect that every basketball league in the world works the same way. Unless a GM is planning things years into the future a tank is a destined failure. Quality players will leave before the talent picked up matures, or they will be traded during the process. And when they do mature, if they stick around they will be surrounded by young immature players who only know how to lose.

                This is why there is a chorus of us who hope Demar, and Amir stay. Those are the type of players that become vets who play meaningful minutes on championship teams. We probably agree that they're not stars, but hard work is a skill. And the only commonality between the 8 teams that have won titles since Bird/Magic did their thing and the Raptors is the drive that those 2 have. You can't coach effort.

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                • #53
                  If people dont get it after this i'm done trying, because they will never be convinced, they are not open to be convinced.
                  Tanking does not mean get #1 pick, it means stay in the lottery to have a chance at a better talent. The greatest of all time was drafted 3rd; #1 is just a number.

                  Bill Russell NBA Finals Most Valuable Player Award

                  2013 : Lebron James (Free agency) 1987: Magic Johnson(Drafted 1st)
                  2012 :Lebron James (Free agency) 1986: Larry Bird(Drafted 6th)
                  2011: Dirk Nowitzky (Drafted 9th) 1985: Kareem Abdul-Jabbar(Trade)
                  2010:Kobe Bryant(Drafted 13th) 1984: Larry Bird (Drafted 6th)
                  2009:Kobe Bryant(Drafted 13th) 1983: Moses Malone(Trade)
                  2008: Paul Pierce (Drafted 10th) 1982: Magic Johnson((Drafted 1st)
                  2007: Tony Parker (Drafted 28th) 1981: Cedric Maxwell(Drafted 12th)
                  2006: Dwyane Wade(Drafted 5th) 1980: Magic Johnson(Drafted 1st)
                  2005:Tim Duncan(Drafted 1st) from 1969 to 1979 every single winner was drafted by the title
                  2004: Chauncey Billups (Free agency) team except Wilt in 1972(Trade), i just got tired of writing
                  2003: Tim Duncan(Drafted 1st)
                  2002: Shaquille O’Neal(Free agency)
                  2001: Shaquille O’Neal(Free agency)
                  2000: Shaquille O’Neal(Free agency)
                  1999: Tim Duncan(Drafted 1st)
                  1998: Michael Jordan(Drafted 3rd)
                  1997: Michael Jordan(Drafted 3rd)
                  1996: Michael Jordan(Drafted 3rd)
                  1995: Hakeem Olajuwon(Drafted 1st)
                  1994: Hakeem Olajuwon(Drafted 1st)
                  1993: Michael Jordan(Drafted 3rd)
                  1992:Michael Jordan(Drafted 3rd)
                  1991: Michael Jordan(Drafted 3rd)
                  1990: Isiah Thomas(Drafted 2nd)
                  1989: Joe Dumars(Drafted 18th)
                  1988: James Worthy(Drafted 1st)

                  Trade: 3(all before 1985)
                  Free Agency: 6
                  Drafted by the title team: 36
                  Drafted outside of Lottery 2, Drafted in Lottery 43


                  Bottom Line you start in the Draft Lottery. The only question that remains is, Do we have a player of the caliber of those above already on the team or are we still looking ?

                  I'll throw my cliche around again because i just backed it up. FRANCHISE PLAYERS GET DRAFTED THEY DONT GET TRADED.
                  Last edited by Dino4life; Sun Jun 30, 2013, 07:33 AM.

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                  • #54
                    Huh? Lebron was drafted by the Cavs and was TRADED (I know it wasn't really a trade, but hear me out) to the Heat (where he won his 1st title). Kobe was TRADED to the Lakers for Vlade Divac, Chauncey was a Free agent, so was Shaq, pretty sure Dirk was a draft day trade too (His Wiki page says he was traded from the Bucks)... Those 80s players are all pre- modern CBA. Players barely had free agency, they were stuck where they were drafted. It wasn't until Stern came that there was even a lottery system...So in the 90's when players had rights, AND the pool was thinned from expansion the draft meant something but look at the 00's onwards. Trades, and free agency mean as much, if not more now.

                    And why race to last place when you can turn players into wanted assets by winning?

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                    • #55
                      blackjitsu wrote: View Post
                      Huh? Lebron was drafted by the Cavs and was TRADED (I know it wasn't really a trade, but hear me out) to the Heat (where he won his 1st title). Kobe was TRADED to the Lakers for Vlade Divac, Chauncey was a Free agent, so was Shaq, pretty sure Dirk was a draft day trade too (His Wiki page says he was traded from the Bucks)... Those 80s players are all pre- modern CBA. Players barely had free agency, they were stuck where they were drafted. It wasn't until Stern came that there was even a lottery system...So in the 90's when players had rights, AND the pool was thinned from expansion the draft meant something but look at the 00's onwards. Trades, and free agency mean as much, if not more now.

                      And why race to last place when you can turn players into wanted assets by winning?
                      Lebron was not traded, he walked out in free agency, the sign & trade is CBA provision so teams dont get shafted when their players walk out, like Shaq Did to orlando. If the Cavs had a choice you think for 1 second they would have traded him ?

                      Kobe was not traded, the pick was traded, and because in the NBA you cant trade before the new season, they had to pick him for the lakers, but the lakers chose him. Dirk was a draft trade that was targeted before the draft by the mavs.
                      Chauncey was a free agent that's what i wrote.
                      So no, Trade is not an option it hasn't happened since those 80's players you discredit.

                      The only alternative is Free Agency and we all know how that works out in Toronto

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                      • #56
                        dpww wrote: View Post
                        ...We are not as attractive as the LA's, NY's, even MIA's/HOU's/BOS' etc....
                        But Toronto is a LOT more attractive than Atlanta

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                        • #57
                          torch19 wrote: View Post
                          ...What I'm saying is timing is everything & as of right now, our situation dictates that we go for the playoffs because it is the smarter thing to do than getting less for your assets right now coming off a disappointing season.
                          What I have been trying to say in this and other threads, but said much better.

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                          • #58
                            The clippers are a good example of how tanking can work. It gave them enough good young players to lure a superstar player. But obviously, tanking isn't the only way to get star talent

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                            • #59
                              Raptor_11 wrote: View Post
                              The clippers are a good example of how tanking can work. It gave them enough good young players to lure a superstar player. But obviously, tanking isn't the only way to get star talent
                              Not really a good example....They've been "tanking", as in totally sucking and making frequent lottery appearances, for about....well forever. Every decade or two they make the playoffs after the young "talent" they've drafted put together a couple of strong seasons.

                              And now that they have a strong team, they did it by trading away good player, but none of them even close to great players, for Chris Paul. Gordon, Kaman and Aminu are hardly excellent players. The Raptors currently have comparable assets to get a deal done, so why tank? Gordon is nothing special. A volume scorer with a bad attitude, bad injury history, undersized, whiny prima donna. Kaman is even more allergic to help D than Bargnani. Aminu is a fringe rotation player who's basically just a defensive player. I would posit that we have the assets RIGHT NOW to go after a game changer if CP3 could be acquired with that motley crew and a 1st rd pick. Tanking is just going to make us bad for JV's development years, and if they screw up the drafting at all and the team stays bad, likely leads to JV's exit.

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                              • #60
                                But Paul wanted to go to LA, that's why the trade happened. I'm not saying the Raptors need to tank, but the Clippers suckage allowed them to draft Griffin, who was a major factor in Chris Paul's decision. It's by no means a perfect recipe, but it is a certain route which many teams are deciding to take with the 2014 draft as stacked as it is. As for the Raps, I'll trust Ujiri knows what's best for the team

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