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Changing Circumstances: A Tanking Argument

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  • magoon
    replied
    NoPropsneeded wrote: View Post
    In other words. The only GM's who tank are the ones who are lazy and don't want to build their team the smart way
    Sam Presti and Danny Ainge are pointing at you and laughing.

    It's a given that no team can be successful all the time. The key to longterm high-level success and franchise respect in the NBA is minimizing the "bad time" by using it productively - this is done with quick tanks (as brief as a single season) and smart accumulation of assets in the down years. In essence, you accumulate value on the downward slope so when you start back up you already have momentum.

    Toronto has to minimize its bad time, which means actually directly engaging with it by accumulating value on the downswing. We've never really done it; BC (and Babcock before him, and Thomas before him) always just kept trying to make bad teams incrementally better.

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  • NoPropsneeded
    replied
    p00ka wrote: View Post
    I don't think I'll ever be able to buy into a full on tank to purposely be a bad team and lose as many games as possible,,,,,,,,,, to get a high draft pick.

    Some will scoff at what they'll call moralizing, and to that I say,,,,,,,,,, thank you.

    What ever sport I've followed over the years, I've always gravitated to teams that have class, and are smart, which includes intelligent evaluation and patience . This team, as it stands at this moment, has class, and appears to have some new smarts making decisions. Tanking, as described above, and what most are talking about as a "proper rebuild" "tank", comes across as low-life, trying to get there the easy way (whether smart or not), rather than through hard work and/or smarts. Maybe I'm being a tad harsh with the low-life terminology, but purposely being bad is kinda cheating the game, the players, the coaches, and the fans. When I read most suggestions about how to execute this tanking "plan", I want to puke.
    In other words. The only GM's who tank are the ones who are lazy and don't want to build their team the smart way. Ujiri is a very smart guy, he's not going to tank. He knows how to build a team by maneuvering and swapping pieces that fit into the puzzle.

    Leave a comment:


  • Joey
    replied
    Steve Nash had a great quote regarding the Lakers, that I found was applicable to my stance on the matter:
    "We got a lot to play for, to try to make our team into something -- championship or not -- that our fans are proud of and feel good about and can't wait to go see out there on the floor every night and try to beat people," Nash said.
    I think that IF we are a "Second Round Exit" team, then a couple moves should help us get through the next couple rounds.

    Leave a comment:


  • p00ka
    replied
    I don't think I'll ever be able to buy into a full on tank to purposely be a bad team and lose as many games as possible,,,,,,,,,, to get a high draft pick.

    Some will scoff at what they'll call moralizing, and to that I say,,,,,,,,,, thank you.

    What ever sport I've followed over the years, I've always gravitated to teams that have class, and are smart, which includes intelligent evaluation and patience . This team, as it stands at this moment, has class, and appears to have some new smarts making decisions. Tanking, as described above, and what most are talking about as a "proper rebuild" "tank", comes across as low-life, trying to get there the easy way (whether smart or not), rather than through hard work and/or smarts. Maybe I'm being a tad harsh with the low-life terminology, but purposely being bad is kinda cheating the game, the players, the coaches, and the fans. When I read most suggestions about how to execute this tanking "plan", I want to puke.

    Leave a comment:


  • Sam17
    replied
    planetmars wrote: View Post
    I have been an anti-tanker for a long time, and even I am starting to lean the other way now. Could we perhaps tell Gay to sit out one season? He can get paid and all, just don't play.. oh and tell Casey that he will be fired if they don't get in the bottom 5 by the end of the year (jk - kinda).

    Here's the tank trade we need to make:

    Gay to Charlotte for Gordon, MKG, Portland or Detroit's 2014 draft pick (whichever is worse).

    Boom!
    I've been an anti-tanker for a long time too but I'm not gunna lie, Marcus Smart, Andrew Wiggins, or Jabari Parker would be really nice

    Leave a comment:


  • magoon
    replied
    Matt52 wrote: View Post
    Since they are after Monta Ellis, how about an offer of Lowry/Gay for Gordon, Kemba, both Portland/Detroit picks, and the right to swap 2014 picks (Toronto and Charlotte).
    I think in order to make that work for Charlotte, we're taking back Ramon Sessions rather than Kemba. But I'd still do it in a second.

    Leave a comment:


  • thead
    replied
    planetmars wrote: View Post
    I have been an anti-tanker for a long time, and even I am starting to lean the other way now.
    In principle I still am anti-tanking. But if in my estimation 2 - possibly 4 teams are the only ones tanking, I think we need to do everything we can do it HARD once, pick up 3 or 4 really good to elite young guys (including 1 of the 5 supposed franchise guys) and never do it again.

    Leave a comment:


  • planetmars
    replied
    aaron.in.toronto wrote: View Post
    love it... i would be so excited going into next years draft with multiple picks (but i hope you mean which ever pick is better...or higher)
    Yeah, sorry that's what I meant. The 'better' pick.

    Leave a comment:


  • aaron.in.toronto
    replied
    Matt52 wrote: View Post
    Since they are after Monta Ellis, how about an offer of Lowry/Gay for Gordon, Kemba, both Portland/Detroit picks, and the right to swap 2014 picks (Toronto and Charlotte).
    also a great move for us...

    Leave a comment:


  • aaron.in.toronto
    replied
    planetmars wrote: View Post
    I have been an anti-tanker for a long time, and even I am starting to lean the other way now. Could we perhaps tell Gay to sit out one season? He can get paid and all, just don't play.. oh and tell Casey that he will be fired if they don't get in the bottom 5 by the end of the year (jk - kinda).

    Here's the tank trade we need to make:

    Gay to Charlotte for Gordon, MKG, Portland or Detroit's 2014 draft pick (whichever is worse).

    Boom!
    love it... i would be so excited going into next years draft with multiple picks (but i hope you mean which ever pick is better...or higher)

    Leave a comment:


  • mcHAPPY
    replied
    planetmars wrote: View Post
    I have been an anti-tanker for a long time, and even I am starting to lean the other way now. Could we perhaps tell Gay to sit out one season? He can get paid and all, just don't play.. oh and tell Casey that he will be fired if they don't get in the bottom 5 by the end of the year (jk - kinda).

    Here's the tank trade we need to make:

    Gay to Charlotte for Gordon, MKG, Portland or Detroit's 2014 draft pick (whichever is worse).

    Boom!
    Since they are after Monta Ellis, how about an offer of Lowry/Gay for Gordon, Kemba, both Portland/Detroit picks, and the right to swap 2014 picks (Toronto and Charlotte).

    Leave a comment:


  • aaron.in.toronto
    replied
    i think you pretty much nailed it, except the part about us being a second round playoff exit potentially.

    thats the part that im not sure i buy that a lot of people here are selling, do you really think that we would be able to go on the road and upset one of the top teams in the east (probably Bulls, Nets , Pacers, or Heat) this year?

    i actually like the guys that are starting but no star, no calls, no wins imo.

    if the team is only good enough to be .500, they wont beat the Heat or the Bulls and and im just not sure where we go from there...

    i would collect assests, clear space and take my roll of the dice (maybe two if we can make a really nice trade...) in the next draft, then go back to building/growing the guys we have... best case we have an elite level canadian star, worst case we have another decent young player on top of any talent we traded for, because i feel that players the calibre of lowry and gay will available to us any time we want in the future if we are willing to take on high priced vets at the expense of cheap youth with upside...

    we might not get a chance to draft a star like this with a young team in this position for another 15 seasons, thats how i feel

    Leave a comment:


  • planetmars
    replied
    I have been an anti-tanker for a long time, and even I am starting to lean the other way now. Could we perhaps tell Gay to sit out one season? He can get paid and all, just don't play.. oh and tell Casey that he will be fired if they don't get in the bottom 5 by the end of the year (jk - kinda).

    Here's the tank trade we need to make:

    Gay to Charlotte for Gordon, MKG, Portland or Detroit's 2014 draft pick (whichever is worse).

    Boom!

    Leave a comment:


  • mcHAPPY
    replied
    The key element in trading Gay (because lets be honest, he is the most important if not first domino) is the teams that have gone all in, namely Detroit, Charlotte, and Cleveland.

    Charlotte going for Ellis is telling to what extremes these teams are willing to go to at least make them believe they have a shot at the playoffs.

    There really are only 4 teams (PHX, UTA, PHI, ORL) at this point in time who are likely going to be really bad, know it, and is part of the plan.

    SAC is swinging for the fences along with a number of other bottom feeders.

    If you can get a combination of proven young talent, prospects, picks, and financial relief I think the Raptors are nuts not to at this point in time given the events of last 10 days.

    The threadmill is only getting more crowded.

    Leave a comment:


  • CalgaryRapsFan
    replied
    It looks like Monta Ellis is going to either Atlanta, Sacramento or Charlotte... at least one more bubble team will have added another solid piece in an attempt to climb out of the lotterly, further strengthening the pro-tank argument.

    As I posted in another thread yesterday, I agree with you that there are 2 clear-cut cellar-dwelling teams in each conference: Philly, Orlando, Phoenix and Utah (your part D thru F).

    I very much believe MU is reviewing all the roster moves made by the competition, as part of his evaluation of his own team's roster and ideal direction. With all the crazy moves made by several perennial lottery teams, the window to successfully tank/rebuild/retool has definitely opened a little wider, should MU choose to take the Raptors in that direction (good side discussion going on in posts 11-15: http://www.raptorsrepublic.com/forum...-Page-Rip-Off)

    Leave a comment:

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