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Changing Circumstances: A Tanking Argument

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  • #16
    NoPropsneeded wrote: View Post
    In other words. The only GM's who tank are the ones who are lazy and don't want to build their team the smart way
    Sam Presti and Danny Ainge are pointing at you and laughing.

    It's a given that no team can be successful all the time. The key to longterm high-level success and franchise respect in the NBA is minimizing the "bad time" by using it productively - this is done with quick tanks (as brief as a single season) and smart accumulation of assets in the down years. In essence, you accumulate value on the downward slope so when you start back up you already have momentum.

    Toronto has to minimize its bad time, which means actually directly engaging with it by accumulating value on the downswing. We've never really done it; BC (and Babcock before him, and Thomas before him) always just kept trying to make bad teams incrementally better.

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    • #17
      magoon wrote: View Post
      Sam Presti and Danny Ainge are pointing at you and laughing.

      It's a given that no team can be successful all the time. The key to longterm high-level success and franchise respect in the NBA is minimizing the "bad time" by using it productively - this is done with quick tanks (as brief as a single season) and smart accumulation of assets in the down years. In essence, you accumulate value on the downward slope so when you start back up you already have momentum.

      Toronto has to minimize its bad time, which means actually directly engaging with it by accumulating value on the downswing. We've never really done it; BC (and Babcock before him, and Thomas before him) always just kept trying to make bad teams incrementally better.
      They both suck ass. Sam Presti got lucky with KD and Danny Ainge has never rebuilt a team via tanking and been successful, try again.

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      • #18
        just to be clear about the second round playoff team comment I made. That is with absolutely EVERYTHING going right for us.
        For still frame photograph of me reading the DeRozan thread please refer to my avatar

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        • #19
          NoPropsneeded wrote: View Post
          They both suck ass. Sam Presti got lucky with KD and Danny Ainge has never rebuilt a team via tanking and been successful, try again.
          tanking remains the best way for long term success. but then you have to go on and draft someone like Duncan/Durant - high character guys with endless potential. There are other ways but they require a lot more luck (The morey method) than drafting someone in lottery after finishing as one of the worst teams.

          The most common objection to tanking is watching a team lose intentionally. we will not win a lot of games if we sold Gay/Lowry for picks and young talent. Andrew Wiggins is definitely worth tanking for.

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          • #20
            KD may have been luck, but was Westrbook, Harden and Ibaka? At some point you have to acknowledge that the man knows what he is doing.
            For still frame photograph of me reading the DeRozan thread please refer to my avatar

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            • #21
              thead wrote: View Post
              KD may have been luck, but was Westrbook, Harden and Ibaka? At some point you have to acknowledge that the man knows what he is doing.
              He's no dumby, and he tries his best, like all other GMs, but he's not the talent evaluator and negotiating genius he's being anointed as, by some. He has his hits, and his misses. He didn't seem to "know what he's doing" when he signed Ibaka (great shot blocker, but what else?) to the big $$$, knowing he wouldn't also be able to keep Harden. Then gives Harden up for 3 bit pieces.

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              • #22
                p00ka wrote: View Post
                Then gives Harden up for 3 bit pieces.
                Harden is a star, he needed his own team. He got far more for him than we did for Bosh.

                As for questioning his talent evaluation? He has built a perennial playoff powerhouse mostly through the draft. I don't get why anyone thinks they have the right to shit on this man. He is a top GM in the league period.
                For still frame photograph of me reading the DeRozan thread please refer to my avatar

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                • #23
                  NoPropsneeded wrote: View Post
                  In other words. The only GM's who tank are the ones who are lazy and don't want to build their team the smart way. Ujiri is a very smart guy, he's not going to tank. He knows how to build a team by maneuvering and swapping pieces that fit into the puzzle.
                  Sixers tank was textbook. Boston quality tank also. Think I could have lived with us losing one more game a year ago to take Barnes also. Tanking is definitely not always bad, and can be an efficient way to rebuild quickly.

                  That being said, not in favour of us tanking this year. I'd prefer to see what we have, and would view a playoff spot as progress.

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                  • #24
                    Although the moratorium is lifted on July 11th, it seems that the dust is settling a bit (as other teams are signing their players, etc). I'm willing to accept tanking so I'll have to wait and see if the Gay / Derozan or both, falls to the ground via a trade / salary dump. Did I mention I love the Hansbrough signing?

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                    • #25
                      joey_hesketh wrote: View Post
                      Steve Nash had a great quote regarding the Lakers, that I found was applicable to my stance on the matter:


                      I think that IF we are a "Second Round Exit" team, then a couple moves should help us get through the next couple rounds.
                      That should be the mantra of every player and coach.

                      GMs not so much.

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                      • #26
                        NoPropsneeded wrote: View Post
                        They both suck ass. Sam Presti got lucky with KD and Danny Ainge has never rebuilt a team via tanking and been successful, try again.
                        You should revisit 2006-07 celtics season for Ainge.

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                        • #27
                          I see it being really difficult to do a proper tank. I also see it being really difficult to win 2 playoff games... Unless Ujiri can pull something magical out of his nethercrack, I think it's going to be 2015 before we can really get off the treadmill in either direction.
                          "They're going to have to rename the whole conference after us: Toronto Raptors 2014-2015 Northern Conference Champions" ~ ezzbee Dec. 2014

                          "I guess I got a little carried away there" ~ ezzbee Apr. 2015

                          "We only have one rule on this team. What is that rule? E.L.E. That's right's, E.L.E, and what does E.L.E. stand for? EVERYBODY LOVE EVERYBODY. Right there up on the wall, because this isn't just a basketball team, this is a lifestyle. ~ Jackie Moon

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                          • #28
                            thead wrote: View Post
                            just to be clear about the second round playoff team comment I made. That is with absolutely EVERYTHING going right for us.
                            With EVERYTHING going right for us I think we're still a first round exit. This team does not have the talent to beat a top 4 team. Not even close.
                            your pal,
                            ebrian

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                            • #29
                              ezz_bee wrote: View Post
                              I see it being really difficult to do a proper tank. I also see it being really difficult to win 2 playoff games... Unless Ujiri can pull something magical out of his nethercrack, I think it's going to be 2015 before we can really get off the treadmill in either direction.
                              Agreed. It's difficult also because we've just come off 5 years of losing. Usually tanking comes when the team has an aging group of players, or sees a downward spiral ahead, and accelerates it by selling players for valuable assets and draft picks. I think the problem here is that we've just got so many overpaid players that it's just way harder to find the perfect trade partners to do an instant rebuild. I have to give kudos for the Bargnani trade, that was fantastic. But you literally need to do 2-3 more similar deals to get it completely righted.
                              your pal,
                              ebrian

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                              • #30
                                p00ka wrote: View Post
                                He's no dumby, and he tries his best, like all other GMs, but he's not the talent evaluator and negotiating genius he's being anointed as, by some. He has his hits, and his misses. He didn't seem to "know what he's doing" when he signed Ibaka (great shot blocker, but what else?) to the big $$$, knowing he wouldn't also be able to keep Harden. Then gives Harden up for 3 bit pieces.
                                Serge Ibaka:

                                ws/48 of .181 PER 19.4 WP .222

                                led the league in blocked shots, 4th in fg%

                                shot 35% from 3 and 47% from 16-23ft and a ts% over .600

                                all for 12.3 mil a year

                                Ibaka was an excellent deal.

                                Presti's deal of Harden was a lot more complicated than not evaluating his talent properly or being a bad negotiator. OKC couldn't afford to keep Harden, was still in a position to win now, while young enough to be a contender well into the future. The deal solved OKC's financial issues, gave them a replacement player for the short term and potential replacements long term.

                                Interesting fun fact about OKC last year. They had their best winning % ever, their best ORTG ever and their best DRTG ever. As a franchise, one would have to go back to 1994 through 1996 to find winning% and O/Drtgs as good as they had in 2012-13.

                                As much as I'm sure Presti had no interest in dealing Harden, the team still continued to improve despite that deal, while having more financial flexibility. It was a rare good deal for both teams.

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