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Changing Circumstances: A Tanking Argument

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  • white men can't jump
    replied
    Fully wrote: View Post
    Ross was supposed to be an NBA ready prospect. That was part of the justification for tabbing him over Drummond.

    He had plenty of opportunities at the beginning of last season, but he struggled mightily as the year went on and played his way out of the rotation. It's that simple. He had a close to two month stretch where he was about as bad as any player in the league. The narrative that Casey suddenly woke up one morning in January and decided to bury Ross in favour of AA has gotten a little out of control.
    That's news to me. They said he already had one NBA skill, and that's shooting. That doesn't mean he's going to come in knocking down every shot he takes, or playing 30 mpg.

    And it was in February. Go look at the game logs. Ross and Anderson both hit a funk around the trade...as is a bit normal when something shakes up the rotation. Anderson was given a chance to play out of it. Ross was not. Anderson had an awful February, with just horrid games shooting the ball where he didn't have much impact at all. It was his worst month. Yet he never lost his opportunity.
    Last edited by white men can't jump; Thu Jul 11, 2013, 11:12 AM.

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  • Fully
    replied
    white men can't jump wrote: View Post
    So you wanted him to take advantage of an opportunity he was not ready for? I thought he did since he clearly was too green to be out there. He definitely played above his level of "readiness" when given regular minutes.
    Ross was supposed to be an NBA ready prospect. That was part of the justification for tabbing him over Drummond.

    He had plenty of opportunities at the beginning of last season, but he struggled mightily as the year went on and played his way out of the rotation. It's that simple. He had a close to two month stretch where he was about as bad as any player in the league. The narrative that Casey suddenly woke up one morning in January and decided to bury Ross in favour of AA has gotten a little out of control. Ross played a huge part in it - by playing terribly.

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  • Fully
    replied
    Matt52 wrote: View Post
    Bold: Sadly it is not that easy. Then we need a Stephenson, an all-star PF, depth on the bench. I think hoping two guys with 4 full seasons and 7 full seasons under their belt to step up and become what a guy with just 3 years experience is missing the entire point of the discussion: ceiling vs. stepping stone.
    The difference between Casey and Vogel is pretty wide at this point too.

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  • white men can't jump
    replied
    Mediumcore wrote: View Post
    With his skill set, if he came into the league NBA ready it would not have taken long to de-throne DeMar or at the very least take minutes away from Alan Anderson. He was not ready and thus is what I meant about not using his opportunity given to him whether it was in practice or in game.

    He was a rookie and not everyone can make a smooth transition from college to NBA like Lillard, Wade, Griffin, VC etc..which is why I went onto say that my hope lies with him more than DeMar to be a more exceptional player. However, he has to play like he knows he's better than DeMar and take the minutes.
    So you wanted him to take advantage of an opportunity he was not ready for? I thought he did since he clearly was too green to be out there. He definitely played above his level of "readiness" when given regular minutes.

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  • Mediumcore
    replied
    white men can't jump wrote: View Post
    What opportunity? Did I miss something? He struggled out the gate, then started adjusting quite well...then had like 3 bad games which coincided with the Gay trade, and got buried on the bench in favour of AA until the last 15ish games of the year.

    He did fairly well in the stretches of the year where he saw regular minutes. He had obvious rookie struggles, but he also showed a good skill base, and freakish athleticism. I would say he did fine when given the opportunity...this was just inexplicably taken away from him at some point...Probably because Colangelo went to Casey and said "if you don't make the playoffs we'll both get fired", so Casey tried to play AA with that goal in mind.
    With his skill set, if he came into the league NBA ready it would not have taken long to de-throne DeMar or at the very least take minutes away from Alan Anderson. He was not ready and thus is what I meant about not using his opportunity given to him whether it was in practice or in game.

    He was a rookie and not everyone can make a smooth transition from college to NBA like Lillard, Wade, Griffin, VC etc..which is why I went onto say that my hope lies with him more than DeMar to be a more exceptional player. However, he has to play like he knows he's better than DeMar and take the minutes.

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  • white men can't jump
    replied
    Mediumcore wrote: View Post
    Young, yes. Neither have shown anything resembling exceptional talent though. DeRozan isn't going to improve by leaps and bouds anymore so outside of tightening up his game he is what we've seen so far. Ross still has the potential to be that guy you are referring to, but he didn't exactly grab the opportunitiy that was given to him last season. My hope lies more with Ross at this point, but he needs to show that he wants it. He's gotta go at DeRozan hard in practice and take the starting role from him.
    What opportunity? Did I miss something? He struggled out the gate, then started adjusting quite well...then had like 3 bad games which coincided with the Gay trade, and got buried on the bench in favour of AA until the last 15ish games of the year.

    He did fairly well in the stretches of the year where he saw regular minutes. He had obvious rookie struggles, but he also showed a good skill base, and freakish athleticism. I would say he did fine when given the opportunity...this was just inexplicably taken away from him at some point...Probably because Colangelo went to Casey and said "if you don't make the playoffs we'll both get fired", so Casey tried to play AA with that goal in mind.

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  • seiz
    replied
    hateslosing wrote: View Post
    Young talent like...Derozan and Ross?

    A strong center...like Valanciunas?

    Just saying, there are more similaritites than differences between where we are and where indi was two years ago. We just need someone to step up and be our Paul George (RudyGay, DD) and have Val keep developping to give us that inside presence.
    Personally, I don't really understand the Indiana comparisons. Indiana is one of the best defensive teams in the league. They have two all-stars in Paul George and Roy Hibbert. A former All-star in David West and an All-NBA 3rd team player in Paul George. Rudy Gay is going to enter next season at 27. He's been in this league for the past 7 years and has not improved since his 2nd year in the league. Demar Derozan just finished his 4th year in the league and still can't shoot consistently or dribble. Unless you believe that Demar and Rudy are going to have breakout years next year and that the team will dramatically improve on defense and be one of the best defensive teams in the league, I don't see the Indiana comparisons. Potential does have a shelf life.

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  • Nilanka
    replied
    heinz57 wrote: View Post
    i keep reading all the tanking talk and can't help but think that i wouldn't be shocked AT ALL if we won the atlantic division next season.

    look at the state of the atlantic... it's once again a bloody mess... much like it was the last time we won it.

    Philly - CLEARLY in rebuild mode.. not a tank mode, but im pretty sure it's a conscious decision to nurture their young talent while snatching up lottery picks along the way... they're a couple years away from being legit again

    Boston - same deal as Philly, except they do have a legit star (Rondo). I can't see them being very good for at least another season

    New York - if getting rid of Bargs was "Addition by Subtraction"... getting him is "Subtraction by Addition"... and i can see them giving him some BC-esque "oppurtunity" to validate his pay cheque... just having him on the payroll, you might as well wear a turret as a hat... cuz you're a tank.

    Brooklyn looks like the only team in the Atlantic that is actually going to be TRYING next season... and something about that team just rubs me the wrong way... i keep getting a Lakers last season kinda vibe from them... like everything SHOULD work for them, but it's probably going to be a horrific mess
    I don't see Bargnani getting anything close to the lengthy leash he got here. If he sucks from the start, expect him to be in Woodson's doghouse from the start. The Knicks won't be sacrificing their season to justify Bargnani.

    But to your overall point, it wouldn't surprise me to see the Raps 3rd in the Atlantic

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  • Mediumcore
    replied
    hateslosing wrote: View Post
    Young talent like...Derozan and Ross?
    A strong center...like Valanciunas?

    Just saying, there are more similaritites than differences between where we are and where indi was two years ago. We just need someone to step up and be our Paul George (RudyGay, DD) and have Val keep developping to give us that inside presence.
    Young, yes. Neither have shown anything resembling exceptional talent though. DeRozan isn't going to improve by leaps and bouds anymore so outside of tightening up his game he is what we've seen so far. Ross still has the potential to be that guy you are referring to, but he didn't exactly grab the opportunitiy that was given to him last season. My hope lies more with Ross at this point, but he needs to show that he wants it. He's gotta go at DeRozan hard in practice and take the starting role from him.

    Leave a comment:


  • mcHAPPY
    replied
    hateslosing wrote: View Post
    Young talent like...Derozan and Ross?

    A strong center...like Valanciunas?

    Just saying, there are more similaritites than differences between where we are and where indi was two years ago. We just need someone to step up and be our Paul George (RudyGay, DD) and have Val keep developping to give us that inside presence.
    I don't put DeRozan or Ross anywhere near the same level of talent as George. Nowhere. George has range, defends, rebounds, creates and is one year younger with one year less experience in the league with DeRozan having over 50% more minutes played.

    George had just as much of an impact in his rookie season in nearly 1800 less minutes than DD had in his best season (last year and his 4th in the league) based on WP.

    http://www.thenbageek.com/players/co...r=1&player_ids[]=318&player_ids[]=113&utf8=%E2%9C%93


    Bold: Sadly it is not that easy. Then we need a Stephenson, an all-star PF, depth on the bench. I think hoping two guys with 4 full seasons and 7 full seasons under their belt to step up and become what a guy with just 3 years experience is missing the entire point of the discussion: ceiling vs. stepping stone.

    Leave a comment:


  • heinz57
    replied
    NoPropsneeded wrote: View Post
    You throw in the improvements of Ross, possibly Gay with his corrected Vision, Lowry, and DeRozan. You got possibly 6 to 8 extra wins just from internal development. I wouldn't be sad if we ended up 8th but i wanna be somewhere between 5 - 7, but any playoff spot is awesome at this point. This City is killing for playoff basketball
    i keep reading all the tanking talk and can't help but think that i wouldn't be shocked AT ALL if we won the atlantic division next season.

    look at the state of the atlantic... it's once again a bloody mess... much like it was the last time we won it.

    Philly - CLEARLY in rebuild mode.. not a tank mode, but im pretty sure it's a conscious decision to nurture their young talent while snatching up lottery picks along the way... they're a couple years away from being legit again

    Boston - same deal as Philly, except they do have a legit star (Rondo). I can't see them being very good for at least another season

    New York - if getting rid of Bargs was "Addition by Subtraction"... getting him is "Subtraction by Addition"... and i can see them giving him some BC-esque "oppurtunity" to validate his pay cheque... just having him on the payroll, you might as well wear a turret as a hat... cuz you're a tank.

    Brooklyn looks like the only team in the Atlantic that is actually going to be TRYING next season... and something about that team just rubs me the wrong way... i keep getting a Lakers last season kinda vibe from them... like everything SHOULD work for them, but it's probably going to be a horrific mess

    Leave a comment:


  • hateslosing
    replied
    Matt52 wrote: View Post
    It all depends on what 7-11 is for your team.

    For Indiana, with young talent like George and Stephenson mixed with established talent and a strong C, it was a stepping stone.

    For Milwaukee, as an example, it was a ceiling.

    The Bulls and OKC were the same way a few years ago as well.


    The question for Toronto is this a stepping stone or ceiling?
    Young talent like...Derozan and Ross?

    A strong center...like Valanciunas?

    Just saying, there are more similaritites than differences between where we are and where indi was two years ago. We just need someone to step up and be our Paul George (RudyGay, DD) and have Val keep developping to give us that inside presence.

    Leave a comment:


  • Nilanka
    replied
    Matt52 wrote: View Post
    It all depends on what 7-11 is for your team.

    For Indiana, with young talent like George and Stephenson mixed with established talent and a strong C, it was a stepping stone.

    For Milwaukee, as an example, it was a ceiling.

    The Bulls and OKC were the same way a few years ago as well.


    The question for Toronto is this a stepping stone or ceiling?
    Great explanation.

    In an attempt to answer the question, I would suggest that Gay, Lowry and Amir are our three best players. That is, our three best players who are already in their prime. If the team is to lean on them the most this season, I would think 7-11 would be the Raptors ceiling.

    On the other hand if Jonas, Ross, DeRozan take huge steps this season (and next season), then we might consider the Raptors as a stepping stone to greatness. But IMO, this seems less likely.

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  • Mediumcore
    replied
    Nailed it!

    Leave a comment:


  • mcHAPPY
    replied
    joey_hesketh wrote: View Post
    This whole "7-11" is a little bit misleading; Indiana finished 8th 2 years ago. The last two years they've finished 3rd.

    So to say that if you land in the 8th spot, its some sort of Quick Sand is a little bit silly in my opinion.

    Once you make the playoffs, you must obviously then look to improve, but I'd say Indiana are contenders, and they did it by just slowly building and improving year by year.
    It all depends on what 7-11 is for your team.

    For Indiana, with young talent like George and Stephenson mixed with established talent and a strong C, it was a stepping stone.

    For Milwaukee, as an example, it was a ceiling.

    The Bulls and OKC were the same way a few years ago as well.


    The question for Toronto is this a stepping stone or ceiling?

    Leave a comment:

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