I don't think we'll know whether the Raptors are tanking or not until the Bynum situation gets resolved. If Cleveland misses out on Bynum, they will have to spend that money on someone, and a near all star who fits a position of need and is relatively available fits the bill. That man is Rudy Gay. If Cleveland makes a push for Gay, they have young assets than will set the Raps up nicely for the future (TT), draft picks, and the ability to absorb the majority of Gay's salary without sending much back.
Trading Gay wouldn't be an all out tank, but would probably guarantee we aren't good enough to make the playoffs. That would free us up to move someone like Amir or Derozan to a contender around the all star break to really kick the tank into gear (most tank jobs don't start until after the all star break). Alternatively, if Gay starts the season white hot then he will become much more attractive to other teams and we could get an improved return for him around the all star break. We can try our best with the current lineup, but if it returns as expected, a .500 ish record, then we could ship older guys to contenders before the trade deadline and make the second half of the season developmental (aka tank job).
So to sum things up, we won't know for sure if we're tanking or not until after the trade deadline, because there will still be plenty of games left to lose and a bigger market for our players.
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Changing Circumstances: A Tanking Argument
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Apollo wrote: View PostThe recent signing suggests that they're not tanking.
Ujiri and Novak to meet with media at 3:30 today at ACC.
— Eric Koreen (@ekoreen) July 10, 2013
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magoon wrote: View PostI don't think it's fair to call the Harden trade a mistake, because Presti knew perfectly well that he was gambling. He was specifically gambling that Harden had already hit his ceiling and that given more minutes would not turn into a superstar, and that he would get an equivalent return on Jeremy Lamb, our pick which became Steven Martin, and the Dallas pick OKC has forthcoming.
His return on the trade wasn't bad at all - Kevin Martin was a major factor in getting the team the #1 seed, Lamb shows signs of being a legit sixth man option or even a starting SG, Martin is impressing in summer league and hopefully will replace Kendrick Perkins in the long term, and the Dallas pick might show up as soon as this year if Dallas makes a good run (which they most likely won't, granted). So not the BEST payout, but far from a bad one.
And both Durant and Westbrook got better because they got the opportunity to use the looks which Harden was taking and they made the most of them, so there's a reasonable argument that Harden was superfluous on OKC because he excelled in Houston as the primary option who got the most looks, and as good as Harden is, he's not the primary option when you have Kevin Durant and never will be because Durant is simply better than Harden is.
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Mediumcore wrote: View Post"Get back to where we are today"? We're a 34 win team, where exactly is that?
I'm not going to attempt to point them all out, but one of the big things tankers speak of is the need to develop young players, and have them grow together. There's development, and growth to be expected all over this team, and leaving it exactly as is (pending moves by Ujiri) makes it not the same team it was last year. Not comparing teams or specific talents, but as an example of what I speak of, in KDs 2nd year and Westbrook's 1st, OKC was a 23 win team. Were they a 23 win team the following year? No, they won 50 games.
Do I suggest the Raps can make a similar leap? No, I'm saying the team coming into next season is not the team that started last season, for many reasons, including the development of our young players.
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p00ka wrote: View PostI didn't shit on him. I said he makes mistakes too, in reference to your reverence of him, period.
His return on the trade wasn't bad at all - Kevin Martin was a major factor in getting the team the #1 seed, Lamb shows signs of being a legit sixth man option or even a starting SG, Martin is impressing in summer league and hopefully will replace Kendrick Perkins in the long term, and the Dallas pick might show up as soon as this year if Dallas makes a good run (which they most likely won't, granted). So not the BEST payout, but far from a bad one.
And both Durant and Westbrook got better because they got the opportunity to use the looks which Harden was taking and they made the most of them, so there's a reasonable argument that Harden was superfluous on OKC because he excelled in Houston as the primary option who got the most looks, and as good as Harden is, he's not the primary option when you have Kevin Durant and never will be because Durant is simply better than Harden is.
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thead wrote: View PostHarden is a star, he needed his own team. He got far more for him than we did for Bosh.
As for questioning his talent evaluation? He has built a perennial playoff powerhouse mostly through the draft. I don't get why anyone thinks they have the right to shit on this man. He is a top GM in the league period.
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thead wrote: View PostAfter a little more than six weeks, let it be known that planetmars was the first person to call for Masai Ujiri's ouster.
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planetmars wrote: View PostBut I'm swinging my stance on the tank/anti-tank debate and would prefer to start over with a new GM that actually has a vision.
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thead wrote: View PostBecause it isn't just about Wiggins for me. There are, according to experts, 5 Franchise guys in this draft. So if we play bad enough we have a 100% chance of landing a franchise player.
But I'm swinging my stance on the tank/anti-tank debate and would prefer to start over with a new GM that actually has a vision. Draft picks (especially high lottery picks) are very good assets (probably the best next to a superstar but there are only 3/4 of those to go around).
High picks can land you very good super-star caliber type players.. either by attracting a superstar to play with that high pick (like Paul in LAC) or by trading those picks to get a really good player (like Harden in Houston or Allen in Boston).
Since the team is heading towards mediocrity (7-11) it's best to get high value assets now as opposed to later.
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Raptorfanatic wrote: View PostWhile an interesting post, why do you decimate a young team that has not had a chance to play a full season to have a 25% chance to get a player like Wiggins.
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Raptorfanatic wrote: View PostWhile an interesting post, why do you decimate a young team that has not had a chance to play a full season to have a 25% chance to get a player like Wiggins.
Even if we play to lose and beat the odds to select Wiggins....how many years are we away to get back to where we may be today. Even Lebron had to be surrounded by other great players to win a championship.
Secondly, where the Raptors are is a rather easy place to get to. Even if we assume that the Raps are a playoff bound team, over half the league makes the playoffs every year. If we look at were Toronto is record wise (34 wins), thats an extremely easy point to get to.
That said, it will most likely take numerous years to rebuild. However, the difference is its done with the purpose of increasing the Raptors ceiling. Giving the team what should be a greater opportunity to become a contender, than the proverbial 7-11/mediocre/treadmill (or whatever label one wants to use) that they stand at today and what looks like the near future.
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Raptorfanatic wrote: View PostWhile an interesting post, why do you decimate a young team that has not had a chance to play a full season to have a 25% chance to get a player like Wiggins.
Even if we play to lose and beat the odds to select Wiggins....how many years are we away to get back to where we may be today. Even Lebron had to be surrounded by other great players to win a championship.
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"Get back to where we are today"? We're a 34 win team, where exactly is that?
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Tank Talk SO Ridiculous
thead wrote: View PostPreface: I am not a fan of tanking in the least. I think it cheapens the sport and I wish it wasn't an option. However, recent events have forced me to re-examine my view of this.
Part A: No Tank You
Cleveland: is looking to acquire Andrew Bynum and other moves show this is a team that is interested in winning now. Their GM has announced that they do not want to be in the lottery any longer.
Boston: Has sent strong signals that they are not interested in tanking but rather retooling around Rondo/Bradley/Green/Sully/
Bucks: Not interested in tanking. They are looking to acquire Teague or keep Jennings. Signed OJ Mayo and they still have Ilyasova and Sanders to provide an inside out punch from the 4/5 position.
Atlanta: Does not appear interested in the tank is going out of its way to gain talent...and until they drop Horford no tank is happening there. Oh and the adding of Millsap suggests more second round playoff exits for Atlanta
Washington: Wall/Beal/Porter is a young group that will start climbing the ladder this season, tanking will not sit well with a soon to be extended John Wall.
Portland: Will be taking a significant stride this year as their PG takes another leap.
Hornets: with a healthy AD, and adding all Jrue Holiday no longer want a piece of this sweet sweet 14 draft class.
Detroit: When they signed Josh Smith it was a pretty good indication that they were done losing. They are now looking to climb the ladder as well
Charlotte: signing Al Jefferson has Charlotte primed to move into the dreaded 7 - 11 category, unless they follow that up with other moves.
Part B - Fuggedaboutit
The following teams are not even remotely interested in tanking
Lakers, Clippers, Houston, Miami, New York, Brooklyn, Indiana, Chicago, Golden State, Memphis, San Antonio, OKC, Minnesota.
Part C - This fence is making my balls hurt
The following are teams that see the writing on the wall and finally blow it up and tank.
Denver: They lost...Iggy, Masai, Karl...among others... They have the pieces right now to be another 7 - 11 team. I think they might be taking the view that the 7 - 11 is a ladder and not a well. could go either way.
Dallas: For the second straight year they have failed to sign a single big name. Dirk is getting older and Calderon is their big FA get. Word is they are still on the hunt, and so I will not place them in the tank train yet but they gotta pull off something and soon or else it becomes a very real possibility.
Part D - Organic Growth Year (We love that phrase don't we fellas?)
Orlando, with Tobias Harris, Oladipo, Nicholson, and Vuvecic they look like a promising team on the rise. I think they truly are looking to get better this year and they have four very good pieces to do it with. I expect them to be a 7 - 11 team as well (probably closer to 11) but where as Denver might be looking down a well, Orlando does appear to have a ladder in front of them.
Utah: Out of the shadow of Millsap and Jefferson, Kanter and Favors now have a big chance to shine. Much like Orlando though this is going to be a step up the ladder kind of year. I see them having about the same result as Portland did last year with a young talented PG learning (fucking up a lot) his way into the league. This will likely put them as high as ten and low as 12 in the west.
Sacramento: substitute names with Orlando and same deal. 7 - 11 will be a ladder for them. They have a serious head coach now and it they will competitive. I'd say they land right outside the playoffs in 10th
Part E - Enemy Armor Incoming! Tank Alert
Philly: The only team in the league that I can see is so obviously tanking it hurts, is Philadephia. Traded an All Star for a guy coming off ANOTHER ACL injury. He does have huge upside but likely won't start getting noticed until the end of the season.
Part F - I Seriously Don't Know What The Fuck They Are Doing
Phoenix - ?????????????? retankibuilding? tanktooling? getting worse through the draft? collecting assets? They got Eric Bledsoe to start...maybe...Channing Frye has heart issues, Marcin Gortat doesn't wanna be there. They picked up twins for fun. Kendall Marshall is now a 3rd sting lottery pick??? Someone else can take a crack at this one.
Which brings us to the Raptors....
PG - doesn't make team mates better
SG - Can't shoot 7 million dollar player making 10
SF - Can't shoot 12 million dollar player making 20
PF - No back to the basket low post threat - gotta backup wearing a starter hat.
C - well 1 out of 5 ain't bad!
Our ceiling with this current group is a second round playoff exit. Which I would love to watch. Believe me...it would be a thing of beauty to watch important games being won. However. If we are only truly racing one team to the bottom, and there are 5 guys that could raise you to another level... I hate to say it but I maybe, just maybe I could be talked into tanking.
While an interesting post, why do you decimate a young team that has not had a chance to play a full season to have a 25% chance to get a player like Wiggins.
Even if we play to lose and beat the odds to select Wiggins....how many years are we away to get back to where we may be today. Even Lebron had to be surrounded by other great players to win a championship.
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