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  • Vykis
    replied
    This is like Basilis all over again, i'm having war flashbacks

    Leave a comment:


  • LBF
    replied
    Sam17 wrote: View Post
    lol as if their entire argument isn't already off-topic
    I like them French fried taters. Mhm.

    Leave a comment:


  • white men can't jump
    replied
    Karl Marx. wrote: View Post
    Serbia have produced more NBA players since Divac and Stojakovic retired from national team. Sure it is worst than it was before but it is still way better than Greece system. All you need to do is compare players produced and it would be obvious.

    Offensive language will not make your argument more valid. Give us a list of players that have been produced by the Greek system.
    But you only care about players, but not results. The result is what shows the strength of a system. The ability to produce a team that competes at the highest level. Not the ability to produce players who leave for better contracts in other countries. Serbia also produces many players that leave Serbia for better contracts in Russia, Spain, Greece, Italy, etc....

    So here I go back to results to prove my point, since 2002.

    ---------------Greece--------Serbia
    Eurobasket
    2003----------5th------------6th
    2005----------1st-------------9th
    2007----------4th------------13th
    2009----------3rd-------------2nd
    2011----------6th-------------8th

    FIBA WC
    2006----------2nd------------11th
    2010---------11th-------------4th

    Olympics
    2004----------5th------------11th
    2008----------5th------------dnq
    2012---------dnq-------------dnq

    I don't need to show you Greece sending players that go to the NBA, because the results speak for themselves.

    But because you are obsessed with teh NBA, of the guys currently on the Greek national team, the following have at least been drafted:
    Loukas Mavrokefalidis, Kostas Papanikolau, Vassilis Spanoulis, Georgios Printezis
    *Ioannis Bourousis Never drafted, but turned down a 3 year/12 million dollar contract with the Spurs to stay in Greece
    **Antetokounmpo is a pretty safe bet to join the senior program.
    That's 4 guys drafted, one guy drafted who's still on the younger squad, and one guy who turned down a lucrative contract with a top NBA team to stay in Greece.

    Current Serbian team:
    Nemanja Nedovic, Nemanja Bjelica, Nenad Krstic
    2 guys who have done nothing, and one guy who had a strong start to his career before leveling out as a pretty average player, and who doesn't even stand out in Europe.
    Last edited by white men can't jump; Sun Aug 4, 2013, 01:43 PM.

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  • Karl Marx.
    replied
    white men can't jump wrote: View Post
    That wasn't even the argument. THe argument was that Greece's national system is worse than Serbia's, because you state Serbia produced more NBAers, and that none of these guys would ever choose to play for Greece over Serbia if they had the choice. I'm arguing that's fucking bullshit, because since the Divac-Peja teams, the Serbian system has become pretty mediocre, has produced less talent than Greece, worse results, and actually hasn't kept producing NBAers, your oh so fucking holy measuring stick.
    Serbia have produced more NBA players since Divac and Stojakovic retired from national team. Sure it is worst than it was before but it is still way better than Greece system. All you need to do is compare players produced and it would be obvious.

    Offensive language will not make your argument more valid. Give us a list of players that have been produced by the Greek system.

    Leave a comment:


  • white men can't jump
    replied
    Karl Marx. wrote: View Post
    As I have said, Red Star Belgrade is not the best club when it comes to creating talent. It was important for our story because number of its players went to Greece in young age. Partisan Belgrade was much much better at creating talent. So here it goes:
    Vlade Divac - even you agree he was a great player.
    Predrag Danilovic - Great 3 seasons in the NBA. Went back to Italy because he got an insane deal.
    Zarko Paspalj - did not make it in the NBA but had a great carrier in Greece.
    Aleksandar Djordjevic - best point guard in Europe for a long time.
    Zeljko Rebraca
    Ratko Varda
    Predrag Savovic
    Dejan Koturovic
    Nenad Krstic - great NBA carrier, only went back to Europe on a huge deal.
    Kosta Perovic
    Milos Vujanic
    Miroslav Raduljica - now with Milwaukee
    ----------------------this was list of Serbs that made it to the NBA, now the list of non-Serbs:
    Predrag Drobnjak started his carrier with Partisan.
    Nikola Pekovic - joined them at 19.
    Jan Vesely - joined them at 18.
    Joffrey Lauvergne - just drafted out of Partisan.
    Raso Nesterovic

    Partisan has had two players drafted this year. Red Star Belgrade had one.
    But there is no question that Greece has a better system of producing NBA players.
    That wasn't even the argument. THe argument was that Greece's national system is worse than Serbia's, because you state Serbia produced more NBAers, and that none of these guys would ever choose to play for Greece over Serbia if they had the choice. I'm arguing that's fucking bullshit, because since the Divac-Peja teams, the Serbian system has become pretty mediocre, has produced less talent than Greece, worse results, and actually hasn't kept producing NBAers, your oh so fucking holy measuring stick.
    Last edited by white men can't jump; Sun Aug 4, 2013, 09:38 AM.

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  • Karl Marx.
    replied
    As I have said, Red Star Belgrade is not the best club when it comes to creating talent. It was important for our story because number of its players went to Greece in young age. Partisan Belgrade was much much better at creating talent. So here it goes:
    Vlade Divac - even you agree he was a great player.
    Predrag Danilovic - Great 3 seasons in the NBA. Went back to Italy because he got an insane deal.
    Zarko Paspalj - did not make it in the NBA but had a great carrier in Greece.
    Aleksandar Djordjevic - best point guard in Europe for a long time.
    Zeljko Rebraca
    Ratko Varda
    Predrag Savovic
    Dejan Koturovic
    Nenad Krstic - great NBA carrier, only went back to Europe on a huge deal.
    Kosta Perovic
    Milos Vujanic
    Miroslav Raduljica - now with Milwaukee
    ----------------------this was list of Serbs that made it to the NBA, now the list of non-Serbs:
    Predrag Drobnjak started his carrier with Partisan.
    Nikola Pekovic - joined them at 19.
    Jan Vesely - joined them at 18.
    Joffrey Lauvergne - just drafted out of Partisan.
    Raso Nesterovic

    Partisan has had two players drafted this year. Red Star Belgrade had one.
    But there is no question that Greece has a better system of producing NBA players.

    Leave a comment:


  • white men can't jump
    replied
    Karl Marx. wrote: View Post
    Unlike the States, players in Europe are being built in the Youth set up. And this is particularity true for youth setups of the big clubs which have tradition of developing youth players. If you take a look at the youth set up of Red Star Belgrade, which is NOT the best set up in Serbia, you will see that they have lunched more NBA players than Greek basketball put together. Rastko Cvetkovic, Predrag Stojakovic, Dragan Tarlac, Marko Jaric, Igor Rakocevic, Milos Vujanic, Tadija Dragicevic, Nemanja Bjelica, Vladimir Radmanovic and Nemanja Nedovic. So when you are part of a youth set up that produced so many NBA players, one would suppose that the influence of the system was significant.

    I have just proven to you that 2nd best program in Serbia have produced much more NBA players than the entire Greece did, but if you still think that Greece has better player development program than Serbia, I will have to respect your opinion.
    Greece's program has produced better talent of late and experienced better results. The "Serbian" school of the late 80s, early 90s hasn't been stable and consistent after the countries split apart. I like how you use a team that produces NBAers as an example of why Serbian basketball is better, but it hasn't changed that results have worsened significantly over the last decade. Many of those guys have not had good NBA careers. Peja and Divac (who didn't grow from that club) are the only ones who had great careers, and again, their era is long past.

    Because you keep asking about Greek NBAers. Yes there are less than the Serbians, but it's not like no Greeks never get drafted. Fewer do go to the NBA, but I don't think the Serbian list is that much stronger in terms of quality of players, especially recently. Divac and Peja were a cut above. Other than that it's an unspectacular list. Not sure either list is updated or 100% accurate, but they can't be too far off.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Greek_NBA_players
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...an_NBA_players

    So really, getting back to basics, you have proven that more Serbian players have left for the NBA, and that during a time when they had 2 superstars they were a dominant team internationally. I have proven that since, they have become much worse, and any so-called magic in developing talent seems to have disappeared. IN that time, Greece has experience better results, and in that time, Serbia has not produced better talent than Greece. To me, results are what matter, and if Greece has been experiencing better results for a decade, and Serbia seems to be a bit out of sorts and doing worse, that's evidence that the Greek program is better.

    While I have no problem agreeing that the Yugoslav school was arguably the best non-US system in the world in the 80s and early 90s, it is just not the same today. It hasn't been for a while, and yes, there's no way you'll convince me they're developing better players than the Greek system right now.

    Now I really am done with this.
    Last edited by white men can't jump; Sat Aug 3, 2013, 11:29 PM.

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  • Karl Marx.
    replied
    Unlike the States, players in Europe are being built in the Youth set up. And this is particularity true for youth setups of the big clubs which have tradition of developing youth players. If you take a look at the youth set up of Red Star Belgrade, which is NOT the best set up in Serbia, you will see that they have lunched more NBA players than Greek basketball put together. Rastko Cvetkovic, Predrag Stojakovic, Dragan Tarlac, Marko Jaric, Igor Rakocevic, Milos Vujanic, Tadija Dragicevic, Nemanja Bjelica, Vladimir Radmanovic and Nemanja Nedovic. So when you are part of a youth set up that produced so many NBA players, one would suppose that the influence of the system was significant.

    I have just proven to you that 2nd best program in Serbia have produced much more NBA players than the entire Greece did, but if you still think that Greece has better player development program than Serbia, I will have to respect your opinion.

    Leave a comment:


  • white men can't jump
    replied
    Karl Marx. wrote: View Post
    1. We compared Greek and Serbian school and I do not understand your argument that Serbian players who played for Yugoslav national team should have lesser value because they used to play with non-Serbian players on Yugoslav team.

    2. Besides, when old Yugoslavia fell apart, Serbia and Montenegro continued to compete as Yugoslavia and have wan medals under such name. They wan gold in Indianapolis and Athens.

    3. We can not talk about Serbian and Croatian school as they were both part of the Yugoslav school. Number of players were from mix marriages.

    4. Which NBA players have been produced by the Greek basketball system? Name me the few. And please do not mention Stojakovic, Jaric and Tarlac who have been produced by the youth system of Red Star Belgrade or Rasho Nesterovic (Slovenian) who was produced by Partizan Belgrade. Not to mention Rembis (Santa Clara University).
    I don't understand how it's not relevant that Peja grew as a basketball player in Greece. You say he grew out of the youth system of Red Star Belgrade, but he played for PAOK longer, and from his late teens until he came to the NBA...What would usually be considered the most important development years of any basketball player. But you know, we'll ignore that because he played for Red Star in his youth. I don't know how you can do that. That would be roughly like ignoring where a guy plays NCAA ball.

    The wins they had as Yugoslavia after Croatia split, the wins you speak of, were long ago. '98 and '02. Many of the players on those teams were veterans of the system. My point is just that those guys grew out of the Yugoslav system, not, strictly speaking, a Serbian one. Since the Yugoslav republic fell apart, Serbia, and even Croatia, have struggled to maintain strong programs. Greece, which was definitely a bit weaker than the Yugoslav program, has stayed strong for decades. And now, there's no way you can say that Serbia is stronger.

    And yes, it's hard to name Greek NBA players, basically. But that doesn't mean some good players haven't come and gone. Galis had the respect of Jordan and Auerbach, and again, is widely considered one of the best players to never play in the NBA. Diamantidis has been arguably the best player in Europe for about a decade, and could have easily come to the NBA, but also decided not to. Spanoulis came over and the situation was handled badly by everybody, so he went back to Greece. Obviously they produced Antetokounmpo, though we'll see hwat he's worth. Still, you listed Darko in one of your posts as evidence of the strength of Serbian basketball. Well Antetokounmpo's NBA career is already basically as accomplished (as in, Darko's only real accomplishment was getting drafted).

    I still don't really see any evidence to support that Serbia is stronger than Greece in terms of basketball program. The Yugoslav program was strong. That program doesn't exist anymore. You can't tie the current Serbian school to it. Since every country has separated, they have become inconsistent and usually not very good. Greece has done better. Greece currently has a strong crop of talent. Since that 2002 gold, Serbia has only 2 top 4 finishes in all major tournaments (FIBA, Olympics, Euro), while Greece has 4. That doesn't sound that bad, but if you go with top 8 finishes, Serbia only has 4, while Greece has 8. Serbia's only medal was a silver at 2009 Eurobasket. Greece has the 2005 Euro gold, 2009 Euro bronze, and 2006 FIBA silver. More medals. More elimination round qualifications.

    The quality of a school doesn't stay strong on its own. Investment has to continue to be made in it. The Serbian basketball program is not what it used to be. It's not like their awful, but they're hardly a team that reflects the tradition of the pre-split Yugoslav teams.

    Totally my last post on this issue. So not worth arguing anymore.

    Leave a comment:


  • Sam17
    replied
    LBF wrote: View Post
    Every time you post, I just think of this cause of your name




    oh..almost forgot..off-topic
    lol as if their entire argument isn't already off-topic

    Leave a comment:


  • LBF
    replied
    Karl Marx. wrote: View Post
    1. We compared Greek and Serbian school and I do not understand your argument that Serbian players who played for Yugoslav national team should have lesser value because they used to play with non-Serbian players on Yugoslav team.

    2. Besides, when old Yugoslavia fell apart, Serbia and Montenegro continued to compete as Yugoslavia and have wan medals under such name. They wan gold in Indianapolis and Athens.

    3. We can not talk about Serbian and Croatian school as they were both part of the Yugoslav school. Number of players were from mix marriages.

    4. Which NBA players have been produced by the Greek basketball system? Name me the few. And please do not mention Stojakovic, Jaric and Tarlac who have been produced by the youth system of Red Star Belgrade or Rasho Nesterovic (Slovenian) who was produced by Partizan Belgrade. Not to mention Rembis (Santa Clara University).
    Every time you post, I just think of this cause of your name




    oh..almost forgot..off-topic

    Leave a comment:


  • Karl Marx.
    replied
    white men can't jump wrote: View Post
    If you're talking about Serbian basketball, you can't include the Croatian school, which split off a long time ago. The Croatian players did play for Yugoslavia for a while. The Serbian basketball team has only existed a short time, and in that time, they have not continued the tradition of excellence started by the Yugoslav team. It's fairly obvious this is in large part to losing control over other nations that supplied talent. By funneling, I meant metaphorically as guys had to represent Yugoslavia rather than be able to represent what would eventually become several different nation-states.

    Serbia have had two good finishes (a 2nd at a Eurobasket and a 4th at a Worlds), and had awful finishes other than that since 2002. They failed to qualify for the 2008 and 2012 Olympics (Greece failed to for 2012 as well). They did poorly in most all of their other showings since 2002. Has Greece done much better? They definitely did in the period right after 2002...for the mid-late 00s, they were a better national team. And Serbia has done nothing to suggest that they are on a path to make them stronger than Greece again, like they were in the days of Yugoslavia. As of now, neither team is in a great situation for the last couple of years as they both failed to get to London.

    If you're comparing the Serbian to the Greek system, now the Greek system is better. Was the consolidated Yugoslav system better? Yes (and even then not by a big margin). But now? No. Yes, the top Greek clubs tend to sign foreign players, but they also primarily are filled with Greeks. The top teams are not particularly more filled with foreigners than top teams in other leagues. The reason more players don't go to Serbia is because the top Russian, Spanish and Greek teams invariably offer better deals. That's also why Serbians leave Serbia.

    i also don't understand that part of your argument in general. For example, Serbians leave Serbia to play in Greece. Why would they leave to play in a worse basketball league? Oh wait, it's not. But yet, despite the better league, which is also how countries grow their own talent, you're arguing they have a worse system. So the system results in a more competitive league that attracts better players, and these are the leagues where Greeks grow their talent, but the Greek system is worse than the Serbian....?

    And just to say, I didn't mean that basketball was centralized, I meant that the state was centralized in Belgrade.
    1. We compared Greek and Serbian school and I do not understand your argument that Serbian players who played for Yugoslav national team should have lesser value because they used to play with non-Serbian players on Yugoslav team.

    2. Besides, when old Yugoslavia fell apart, Serbia and Montenegro continued to compete as Yugoslavia and have wan medals under such name. They wan gold in Indianapolis and Athens.

    3. We can not talk about Serbian and Croatian school as they were both part of the Yugoslav school. Number of players were from mix marriages.

    4. Which NBA players have been produced by the Greek basketball system? Name me the few. And please do not mention Stojakovic, Jaric and Tarlac who have been produced by the youth system of Red Star Belgrade or Rasho Nesterovic (Slovenian) who was produced by Partizan Belgrade. Not to mention Rembis (Santa Clara University).

    Leave a comment:


  • The Great One
    replied
    How about a pic of Nate "The Great" Huffman? remember him??

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  • arctic donkey
    replied
    by the way, lol.


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  • arctic donkey
    replied




    the ultimate throwbacks.

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