With or Without You - How Does This Core Fit Together?

[DanH]

Thanks. Glad you all enjoyed it.

[Puffer]

I don't think I have complimented you on this post yet...in a bit of a rush when I first read it but it is waaaaaay to good for me not to say how much I enjoyed reading it.

Posts like this is one of the main reasons I check in on RR every day. Some very talented people reading and commenting on this forum. You have just upped the BIQ* by several points

*Basketball Intelligence Quotient

[mcHAPPY]

Basketball reference.

Thanks.

[DanH]

That is the whole point I raise. There are three ever changing variables. By focusing on 40% you ignore 60%.

No stat or analysis is going to be foolproof. This is some interesting stuff and I thank you for posting it.

Where did you get your lineup info?

Basketball reference.

[mcHAPPY]

Well, you don't want the other players to be constant, so you can isolate the impact of the two individuals.

Ross played 179 minutes with Gay. 61 of those were without Amir. Fields played 162 minutes with Gay. A little short of a couple hundred minutes, I guess. Still around or over 300 possessions each way.

That is the whole point I raise. There are three ever changing variables. By focusing on 40% you ignore 60%.

No stat or analysis is going to be foolproof. This is some interesting stuff and I thank you for posting it.

Where did you get your lineup info?

[DanH]

Not quite a couple of hundred minutes.


Looking at Gay, playing with Fields:



There are 122 minutes but the other 3 players are not constant.



Looking at Ross, playing with Gay:



They played just 38 minutes together with the only other constant being Amir.

Well, you don't want the other players to be constant, so you can isolate the impact of the two individuals.

Ross played 179 minutes with Gay. 61 of those were without Amir. Fields played 162 minutes with Gay. A little short of a couple hundred minutes, I guess. Still around or over 300 possessions each way.

[mcHAPPY]

First point - that's what I meant. Each lineup combo has a couple hundred minutes.

Second point is valid but is hard to isolate for.

Not quite a couple of hundred minutes.


Looking at Gay, playing with Fields:

Lowry-DeRozan-Fields-Gay-Valanciunas 64
Lowry-DeRozan-Fields-Gay-Johnson 24
Lucas-Fields-Anderson-Gay-Valanciunas 12
Telfair-Ross-Fields-Gay-Johnson 12
Lucas-Fields-Anderson-Gay-Bargnani 10

http://www.82games.com/1213/12TOR12.HTM

There are 122 minutes but the other 3 players are not constant.



Looking at Ross, playing with Gay:

Lowry-Ross-DeRozan-Gay-Johnson 21
Lucas-Ross-Anderson-Gay-Johnson 17


http://www.82games.com/1213/12TOR12.HTM

They played just 38 minutes together with the only other constant being Amir.

[DanH]

I was thinking of sample size with regards to each player highlighted playing with another.

The other concern is the other 3 players on the floor. Say Gay and DeRozan are on the floor together but who are the other 3 guys? Your results tend to validate that Amir will be propping up the numbers of Gay and DeRozan together versus Gray, as an example.

Still though, don't get me wrong, I think this is a great post and very insightful.

First point - that's what I meant. Each lineup combo has a couple hundred minutes.

Second point is valid but is hard to isolate for.

[mcHAPPY]

Acy's numbers are pretty small sample sizes, but everyone else sees a couple hundred minutes at least, which is well over 100 possessions. Sample size is certainly a concern though.

I was thinking of sample size with regards to each player highlighted playing with another.

The other concern is the other 3 players on the floor. Say Gay and DeRozan are on the floor together but who are the other 3 guys? Your results tend to validate that Amir will be propping up the numbers of Gay and DeRozan together versus Gray, as an example.

Still though, don't get me wrong, I think this is a great post and very insightful.

[DanH]

This is pretty cool analysis.

The only thing that comes in to my nit picking mind questioning the results is the sample size of each lineup and/or the number of minutes players played with one another. I'm not sure if the samples are large enough to draw any conclusions especially when drawing them out to 100 possessions.


I'm a fan of Fields' game - not his contract though. If he can get his shot back, I'd be very enthusiastic to see how this impacts this type of analysis.

Acy's numbers are pretty small sample sizes, but everyone else sees a couple hundred minutes at least, which is well over 100 possessions. Sample size is certainly a concern though.

[mcHAPPY]

This is pretty cool analysis.

The only thing that comes in to my nit picking mind questioning the results is the sample size of each lineup and/or the number of minutes players played with one another. I'm not sure if the samples are large enough to draw any conclusions especially when drawing them out to 100 possessions.


I'm a fan of Fields' game - not his contract though. If he can get his shot back, I'd be very enthusiastic to see how this impacts this type of analysis.

So you can see that generally speaking, Fields playing in the same lineup as DD is a bad idea - which supports the backup SG role for Fields, letting him play some with Gay while DD sits, or play SF with Ross at SG (as a note, Ross had a +9.7 WOWY with Fields). In fact, of all the players from last year that were retained, only DD had a negative Fields WOWY. The interesting thing of note here is that I expected Fields to hurt the team offensively, and help enough defensively to make up for it. However, the opposite seems to be true in most cases. He's a small negative defensively, and a more significant positive offensively. Note that he has good impacts particularly on Gay and Lowry - two aggressive scorers that draw a lot of attention, and can find a guy on a back door cut. Also note that Gay improves offensively and defensively when playing with Fields.

[DanH]

Is there anyone else in the league who compares to Amir with these type of statistics or is he in a world of his own?

Tough to say with WOWY, but in terms of on-off court, he's 3rd in the league behind LBJ and Conley. Those three stand out above the rest.

[Mr.Z]

Is there anyone else in the league who compares to Amir with these type of statistics or is he in a world of his own?

[thead]

Trade DeMar for expirings.

S&T Lowry + Rudy for 2014 picks, move forwards with Ross-JV core. Tank in 2014, snag Wiggins, Andrew Harrison and Dario Saric

Andrew Harrison-Ross-Wiggins-Saric-JV

Tank again in 2015, grab Jahil Okafor.

Harrison-Ross-Wiggins-Okafor-JV with Saric and others off the bench. Perfect championship contender for the future.

off topic

[DanH]

Acy? His plus minus is awesome!

Oops, well that's true but his total minutes compared to the others are so few that it means he had very little impact.