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Bargnani vs. Vince Carter - Raptors Legacy

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  • #76
    Craiger wrote: View Post
    agreed.

    Even if we want to argue a single player somehow influenced Canadian/Ontarian/Torontonian players to become 'great', why couldn't we argue that said player was Steve Nash? Kid Canada, who every Canadian sports fan knew (if not almost every Canadian), and every Canadian Basketball fan adored, was blowing up the league at the end of Vince's tenure with the Raps. Couldn't that be seen as the greater influence? He proved a Canadian kid could become not only be an allstar, but an MVP, a HoFer and arguably a legend.

    Guys like Wiggins/Thompson/Bennet were just heading into (or not yet in) their very formative years when Nash and his Suns had eyes glued to TVs, and was a constant on any sports program highlight reel or discussion.

    Vince was a great player when he was here and trying. But this persona of heroism people are surrounding him with is a bit much. He didn't save a franchise, he didn't build basketball in Canada, he didn't put Toronto on the map, he didn't change the franchises future long term and he didn't do any nation building.

    What he was, was a very good player who was alot of fun to watch, and gave the team a shot at building a contender. But he gave all that up when he quit and demanded a trade. That in and of itself set this franchise back years.
    There is no denying the influence of Vince Carter on the next generation. If anything, the influence of Steve Nash might be overstated.....

    http://www.thestar.com/sports/raptor...es_of_age.html

    Kelly Olynyk on VC:http://sports.yahoo.com/news/nba--ca...224315146.html

    Anthony Bennett on VC and Nash:
    "I know a lot of people look up to Steve Nash," Bennett said. "But to be honest, I don't know if there is one single guy that really changed the whole thing.
    "As a kid, I used to watch Vince Carter. Vince Carter in Toronto putting down dunks was just crazy. It was something I wanted to do. Every time the Raptors were on I watched and every time he threw down a dunk I would be happy.

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    • #77
      golden wrote: View Post
      There is no denying the influence of Vince Carter on the next generation. If anything, the influence of Steve Nash might be overstated.....

      http://www.thestar.com/sports/raptor...es_of_age.html

      Kelly Olynyk on VC:http://sports.yahoo.com/news/nba--ca...224315146.html

      Anthony Bennett on VC and Nash:
      "I know a lot of people look up to Steve Nash," Bennett said. "But to be honest, I don't know if there is one single guy that really changed the whole thing.
      "As a kid, I used to watch Vince Carter. Vince Carter in Toronto putting down dunks was just crazy. It was something I wanted to do. Every time the Raptors were on I watched and every time he threw down a dunk I would be happy.
      Well if we look at:

      There is no denying the influence of Vince Carter on the next generation
      Then Bennett

      But to be honest, I don't know if there is one single guy that really changed the whole thing
      it more or less goes to my point. I don't think there was 'a guy' that changed things. But IF there was it could just as easily be Nash as it was Carter as it would have been someone else had Carter not been here or Nash not being in the NBA. Did Carter influence individual players? Probably. Did Nash? Probably. Did the team as a whole? Probably.

      As Nilanka pointed out, we see a law of averages taking shape - the NBA as a whole growing and specifically to this situation a team moving into a large and so far untapped population (Toronto). It was inevitable.

      I don't doubt these guys watched Carter, were huge Carter fans, couldn't wait to watch a Raps game to see Carter or see what kind of crazy highlight reel play he'd pull off. He was probably their favorite player. Maybe even a role model.

      But would they not have become 'great' without Carter (or Nash or whoever for that matter)? I doubt it.
      Would they not have become 'great' if the team had kept, say, McGrady instead of Carter? I doubt it.

      Carter happened to be a great player in the right place at the right time for a period of time. The rest however has just become hyperbole because of how events happened to take place.

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      • #78
        Rapstor4Life wrote: View Post
        Is VC a hall of famer? whats your opinion of this?

        If hes inducted might as well retire the jersey.
        Why? The biggest thing he did in Toronto was win the dunk contest. Does that mean that Ross is destined to have his jersey retired too?

        Yes, 'Vinsanity' was a monumental marketing tool for the Raptors and basketball in Canada, as it turned non-basketball fans into basketball fans, and converted fans of other teams into Raptors fans. However, most of his career and most of his (and his team's) success was after he left Toronto. He didn't achieve enough on the court in a Raptors jersey, or lead the Raptors to enough success, to warrant having his jersey retired.

        If actual basketball achievements and length of tenure are going to be ignored, in favor of off-court impact, then I would argue that 'Mighty Mouse' is far more deserving to have his Raptor jersey retired than Vince Carter. Damon Stoudamire put the Raptors on the map internationally immediately, instantly becoming the face of the new franchise. He set the stage for 'Vinsanity', as far as building Raptors brand awareness is concerned.

        Personally, I think retired jerseys should be an honor reserved for long-time players who lead the team to great success, while also achieving personal glory while wearing the jersey being retired. I don't believe any Raptor player fits this description, primarily due to the significant lack of real success this franchise has had during its existence.

        --

        As for Bargnani, his 'legacy' is nothing more than the result of modern technology giving all of us armchair quarterbacks a soapbox to complain from. I would argue that any negative residual coming from Bargnani is a much bigger reflection on, and indictment of, BC. Bargnani didn't control where he was drafted or what expectations were placed on him. He played basketball to the best of his limited abilities and never talked/acted negatively towards the franchise, his teammates/management/coaches, the city/country he played in, or fans of the Toronto Raptors. He was simply the poster boy for poor managment and ongoing franchise futility, which was only magnified by the fact that it came on the heels of the team's unexpected division championship season, which gave fans (and that GM he is infamously forever linked to) so much false hope. I don't think Bargnani has any 'legacy' whatsoever, except in fan forums like RR.
        Last edited by CalgaryRapsFan; Tue Aug 13, 2013, 11:58 AM.

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        • #79
          CalgaryRapsFan wrote: View Post
          Personally, I think retired jerseys should be an honor reserved for long-time players who lead the team to great success, while also achieving personal glory while wearing the jersey being retired. I don't believe any Raptor player fits this description, primarily due to the significant lack of real success this franchise has had during its existence.
          I couldn't agree more.

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          • #80
            Craiger wrote: View Post
            it more or less goes to my point. I don't think there was 'a guy' that changed things. But IF there was it could just as easily be Nash as it was Carter as it would have been someone else had Carter not been here or Nash not being in the NBA. Did Carter influence individual players? Probably. Did Nash? Probably. Did the team as a whole? Probably.
            Totally agree.. Carter was at one point being molded into a superstar like Kobe or Jordan. I think that's the reason why he may have had an impact to some of these new Canadian stars coming into the league.. I don't think it was because he played for the Raptors specifically.

            Stern for all his faults knows how to market the NBA. It's a player's league and they are very good at marketing all their players. I'm sure there were a lot of NBA stars that influenced Candians to play ball more seriously.

            I started playing ball (not competitively but for fun) because of Jordan.. I know others that got into the game because of Bird/Magic before him.. or AI/Kobe after him, or Lebron now.

            Vince had the makings of a superstar but then decided for whatever reason to slow down. If he had the drive like Kobe or Jordan did then I'm sure he'd still be influencing a lot of kids to play ball but it wouldn't just be in Canada it would be all around the world.

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            • #81
              I honestly don't think anyone outside of Toronto even gives Bargnani any consideration. Whereas, when Vince was starring in Toronto, people all over noticed him and the team.

              This isn't even a difficult question.
              Heir, Prince of Cambridge

              If you see KeonClark in the wasteland, please share your food and water with him.

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              • #82
                Vince -> Raptors
                Bargnani -> Craptors

                I think it's quite easy to choose between those two.
                Official Pope of the Raptors sponsored by MLSE.

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                • #83
                  I see some people have brought up the "retired jersey" topic, seemingly making that the topic of focus. With all due respect, that's not what the thread creator asked about. It's about LEGACY (positive for VC, negative for AB). The question also wasn't limited to influence/legacy on the Raptors. As some have pointed out, VC's legacy in drawing in fans in this country, who weren't even NBA fans before (and all the trickle down affects of that. I know from personal observations!), inspiring kids who were able to follow all his wow moments (that they couldn't see that much of with other stars), etc.,,,,,, makes his legacy in this country (which is greater than the GTA in some minds) so far superiour to any negative legacy that AB leaves behind, this shouldn't even be a discussion in my opinion.

                  Not to bring back again to jersey retirement again, but just to be clear on my VC opinion, I find it very disappointing for the wasted talent that he is, and hate him for what he did to the team in his last year and a half, and in no way could I ever see his jersey retired here.

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                  • #84
                    p00ka wrote: View Post
                    Not to bring back again to jersey retirement again, but just to be clear on my VC opinion, I find it very disappointing for the wasted talent that he is, and hate him for what he did to the team in his last year and a half, and in no way could I ever see his jersey retired here.
                    Hear hear!
                    "Stop eating your sushi."
                    "I do actually have a pair of Uggs."
                    "I've had three cups of green tea tonight. I'm wired. I'm absolutely wired."
                    - Jack Armstrong

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                    • #85
                      Jersey retirement should be based on playoff success, championships, and hall of fame induction. And for a franchise that hasn't won a championship, as much as we love some of these players, I have a hard time believing any jersey number should qualify for rotation removal. Timing is everything, and it's not the right time... yet.

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                      • #86
                        OldSchool wrote: View Post
                        Dude you didn't read what i wrote. What is it you're trying to ask with this thread? which player had more of an impact to the team right? Just curious, what do you think Bargnani's legacy to the franchise is?
                        Actually ... a lot.

                        He is representative of a franchise that was, and may still be, run by suits. A group that hasn't let the sport end of the franchise run as it should be - with minimal interference. A player like Bargnani is a perfect example of development under "auspicious" patterns. Carter was just an earlier version, only more talented. What makes AB`s legacy any sort of a legacy, is the fact that 7 years just passed us by.

                        Never-the-less, I firmly believe that Vince Carter has, and will for the next number of years, be the most significant legacy in the history of Toronto basketball. He was a talent that brought many fans to the team, and the closest we can say to Super star, if not in talent.

                        .

                        Watching the NBA Classic basketball tonight [Nov 21, 1999], Raptors played LA (with Shaq), and Vince's game line was 34 pts, 13 Rbs, 4 assists and a .500 fg%. That was Year 2 - what I'd call the Lost Delusion.

                        That LA game was the 1999-2000 team's 7th win, to go along with 3 losses. With McGrady as 2nd banana (from his perspective - and rightly so), this Raptor team was Contender in the making.

                        As such, Vincent Lamar Carter is my vision of a Raptor legacy.
                        Regardless of how he left.

                        .

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                        • #87
                          When it's all said and Done number 17 is going to be in the rafters along with a championship. Y'all can save this comment and look back after a few decades and go "Vince Carter who?"

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                          • #88
                            I honestly feel kinda indifferent towards Bargs cause he was who he was and at no point was it like he was vindictively not giving it his all, he just always was kinda like that.

                            Vince set the team YEARS back. The closest we've come to being as good as when he was doing his thing cause he felt like it was when BC got that squad of overacheivers together and even then we all knew they weren't making it past the first round.
                            @sweatpantsjer

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                            • #89
                              I hate Turkoglu more than Bargnani. Put him up there.
                              If Your Uncle Jack Helped You Off An Elephant, Would You Help Your Uncle Jack Off An Elephant?

                              Sometimes, I like to buy a book on CD and listen to it, while reading music.

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                              • #90
                                RapthoseLeafs wrote: View Post
                                Actually ... a lot.

                                He is representative of a franchise that was, and may still be, run by suits. A group that hasn't let the sport end of the franchise run as it should be - with minimal interference. A player like Bargnani is a perfect example of development under "auspicious" patterns. Carter was just an earlier version, only more talented. What makes AB`s legacy any sort of a legacy, is the fact that 7 years just passed us by.

                                .
                                So Bargs was a first pick that never panned out to much - that's what you condsider a legacy? Does Arujuo or Charlie V have lasting legacies too since they never panned out to much? Do you even remember who they are? lol....this silly thread got hijacked by VC topics anyways.

                                Like LBF said, Hedo got on my nerves way more than Bargs did anyways

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