This Team Needs to Attack the Rim on Offense

[p00ka]

I'll bite:

- I think Jonas will be better. I don't know how much, like you, but I expect he will be one of the top-3 players on the team on both ends by December.
- I think Ross will be better, but probably only marginally, unless Derozan is moved and he gets a lot more PT. I certainly don't think he'll be a significant contributor to wins.
- I don't think Acy will be a factor at all. I hope I'm wrong; I historically love all these 'grit/grind' guys like Popeye, Reggie, etc. But I don't hold out hope that he's any kind of difference-maker this year.
- I think Demar will improve slightly, but not enough in the areas we need him to (3s, defense).
- I think Bargs' departure effect is already done. On the floor, no, I don't think it will have a marked positive effect.
- I don't think Nvak's shooting changes a thing. I don't think he plays more than 10 minutes a game with the current roster.
- I think the addition of Hansbrough was a great one, and I think it will make a difference. But not the kind of difference I think you see.
- I don't know what to think about Fields. If he is better, he will make a big difference; in fact, all things being equal, I think Fields is the biggest x-factor on the team.
- I don't think Gay will be any different, in terms of production and contribution to wins, than he has been so far in his career. And I don't think the eye surgery is a factor other than to indicate he was content to go without fixing it for the 1st 7 years of his career, which I don't see as a particularly strong character trait.
- I think Casey will get this team back to playing better defensive ball. I don't know what that means for the offense.

This is the departure point for the two sides. Neither side is willing to entertain, it seems, the idea that their prognostication is any more susceptible to risk than the other side. I would add, however, that the 'anti-tank' side is MUCH more optimistic, bordering on, shall we say, 'fanatical', than anyone else out there -- 'pro-tank' posters, sports media, the Raptors front office, etc.

So, we may have different opinions on how much of a difference this or that will have. Nothing wrong with that, however this particular discussion is about referring to the Raptors as "a 34 win team", disregarding any difference (of which there are many) between last year's insanely ever changing multiple line-up to the team entering the coming year. I just hate this simplistic "34 win team" refrain being used. For the last time, I hope, It's Dick & Jane logic.

[mcHAPPY]

Good lord. Follow a rebuttal to Dick & Jane level logic, with yet more of it. I'm not going to get into all the differences, but:
- You don't think Jonas will be much better than his rookie year?
- You don't think Ross will be better than his rookie year?
- You don't think Acy will be better?
- You don't think DeMar's work will bring more improvements?
- You don't think Bargs departure will make a positive difference? Were you campaigning for him to be kept, or campaigning that his departure would be addition by subtraction?
- You don't think Novak's 3 pt shooting changes a thing?
- You don't think Psycho T makes our front line a lot tougher?
- You don't think Fields can be much more effective with his nerve damage fixed?
- You don't think work over the summer, plus training camp with his new team will make any difference at all with Gay?
- You don't think Casey being given free reins, and not constrained by BC makes a difference?

I disagree with all of those. It remains to be seen what difference all of these things will make, but to keep chanting this "34 win team" refrain is nothing short of kindergarten logic.

You've got me again.

No other team in the East - especially not the ones like Washington, Cleveland, and Detroit who we'll be directly competing with for the playoffs - made any improvements in the offseason, have young talent in their own right who will be improving, or have players on their roster who were motivated to get better this summer.

Personally, I think it is a wash.

Toronto will likely make improvements in some of the areas p00ka noted (not all) but Fully has a point on other teams also improving.

It is likely a wash because some teams improved (Washington, Cleveland, Detroit, Charlotte) while others took a step back (Milwaukee, Philly, Boston) with others still up in the air (Atlanta).

What is likely to be in Toronto's advantage is they'll have 8 games that SHOULD be easier versus Boston and Philly.

[p00ka]

You've got me again.

No other team in the East - especially not the ones like Washington, Cleveland, and Detroit who we'll be directly competing with for the playoffs - made any improvements in the offseason, have young talent in their own right who will be improving, or have players on their roster who were motivated to get better this summer.

These things always turn into straw man arguments. I never said, nor even implied, anything thing of the sort. My objection is to calling them a "34 win team". Can you say that those teams' improvements make the Raps a "34 win team"? How so?

[jimmie]

Good lord. Follow a rebuttal to Dick & Jane level logic, with yet more of it. I'm not going to get into all the differences, but:
- You don't think Jonas will be much better than his rookie year?
- You don't think Ross will be better than his rookie year?
- You don't think Acy will be better?
- You don't think DeMar's work will bring more improvements?
- You don't think Bargs departure will make a positive difference? Were you campaigning for him to be kept, or campaigning that his departure would be addition by subtraction?
- You don't think Novak's 3 pt shooting changes a thing?
- You don't think Psycho T makes our front line a lot tougher?
- You don't think Fields can be much more effective with his nerve damage fixed?
- You don't think work over the summer, plus training camp with his new team will make any difference at all with Gay?
- You don't think Casey being given free reins, and not constrained by BC makes a difference?

I disagree with all of those. It remains to be seen what difference all of these things will make, but to keep chanting this "34 win team" refrain is nothing short of kindergarten logic.

I'll bite:

- I think Jonas will be better. I don't know how much, like you, but I expect he will be one of the top-3 players on the team on both ends by December.
- I think Ross will be better, but probably only marginally, unless Derozan is moved and he gets a lot more PT. I certainly don't think he'll be a significant contributor to wins.
- I don't think Acy will be a factor at all. I hope I'm wrong; I historically love all these 'grit/grind' guys like Popeye, Reggie, etc. But I don't hold out hope that he's any kind of difference-maker this year.
- I think Demar will improve slightly, but not enough in the areas we need him to (3s, defense).
- I think Bargs' departure effect is already done. On the floor, no, I don't think it will have a marked positive effect.
- I don't think Nvak's shooting changes a thing. I don't think he plays more than 10 minutes a game with the current roster.
- I think the addition of Hansbrough was a great one, and I think it will make a difference. But not the kind of difference I think you see.
- I don't know what to think about Fields. If he is better, he will make a big difference; in fact, all things being equal, I think Fields is the biggest x-factor on the team.
- I don't think Gay will be any different, in terms of production and contribution to wins, than he has been so far in his career. And I don't think the eye surgery is a factor other than to indicate he was content to go without fixing it for the 1st 7 years of his career, which I don't see as a particularly strong character trait.
- I think Casey will get this team back to playing better defensive ball. I don't know what that means for the offense.

This is the departure point for the two sides. Neither side is willing to entertain, it seems, the idea that their prognostication is any more susceptible to risk than the other side. I would add, however, that the 'anti-tank' side is MUCH more optimistic, bordering on, shall we say, 'fanatical', than anyone else out there -- 'pro-tank' posters, sports media, the Raptors front office, etc.

[p00ka]

You certainly are a combative sort.

lol, wouldn't you love to have him on your side of a pick-up game at the Y? Regardless of skills, I would.

[Fully]

Good lord. Follow a rebuttal to Dick & Jane level logic, with yet more of it. I'm not going to get into all the differences, but:
- You don't think Jonas will be much better than his rookie year?
- You don't think Ross will be better than his rookie year?
- You don't think Acy will be better?
- You don't think DeMar's work will bring more improvements?
- You don't think Bargs departure will make a positive difference? Were you campaigning for him to be kept, or campaigning that his departure would be addition by subtraction?
- You don't think Novak's 3 pt shooting changes a thing?
- You don't think Psycho T makes our front line a lot tougher?
- You don't think Fields can be much more effective with his nerve damage fixed?
- You don't think work over the summer, plus training camp with his new team will make any difference at all with Gay?
- You don't think Casey being given free reins, and not constrained by BC makes a difference?

I disagree with all of those. It remains to be seen what difference all of these things will make, but to keep chanting this "34 win team" refrain is nothing short of kindergarten logic.

You've got me again.

No other team in the East - especially not the ones like Washington, Cleveland, and Detroit who we'll be directly competing with for the playoffs - made any improvements in the offseason, have young talent in their own right who will be improving, or have players on their roster who were motivated to get better this summer.

[Fully]

Actually we were 17-15 in the 32 games Gay started which rounds up to 44 wins in an 82 game season, but sure make stuff up to suit your point.

In the meaningless stretch you referred to we played:

Chicago (2x): Had 3 starters (Deng & Noah out), Butler and Boozer played over 40 minutes, pretty sure they were still trying to win since they only finished 1 game ahead of ATL. For the second game Deng was back (34 mins) and we beat them again. Valanciunas did not play in the 2nd game.

Brooklyn: Nets missing G-Force, but aside from that fully healthy. We had 8 active players. No Ross or Val, Acy was the first guy off the bench.


It was only really a meaningless last 2 games with Boston/Atlanta playing their starters less than 20 minutes.

You certainly are a combative sort.

I said the Raptors were .500 after the Rudy Gay trade and they were. I never mentioned anything about the games that Gay started or whatever, because it's a pointless extrapolation anyway that I was doing facetiously (which I thought was obvious but I digress). If you want to be technical about it, Gay has never played a full season so let's assume that he won't next year for the point of my forecast.

As far as the streak to end the season..

We played Chicago once with no Deng, Noah and Gibson (and Rose obviously). Malcolm Thomas played 26 minutes. He played 39 all year.

We played Chicago again with no Noah, Gibson (and Rose). Nazi Mohammed played 43 minutes for them.

Not going to say that Chicago wasn't trying because that's not how Thibs gets down in the least but if you're using those games as a measuring stick... Chicago clearly wasn't at full strength.

We played Boston and Atlanta when they were clearly not interested in winning.

We played Washington and Minnesota when they were jostling for lottery position.

We played Brooklyn and legitimately beat them.

[Nilanka]

I know what I'm about to say is ridiculously simplistic, but it avoids debating hypotheticals.

The Raptors are a non-playoff team until proven otherwise.

[Joey]

Good lord. Follow a rebuttal to Dick & Jane level logic, with yet more of it. I'm not going to get into all the differences, but:
- You don't think Jonas will be much better than his rookie year?
- You don't think Ross will be better than his rookie year?
- You don't think Acy will be better?
- You don't think DeMar's work will bring more improvements?
- You don't think Bargs departure will make a positive difference? Were you campaigning for him to be kept, or campaigning that his departure would be addition by subtraction?
- You don't think Novak's 3 pt shooting changes a thing?
- You don't think Psycho T makes our front line a lot tougher?
- You don't think Fields can be much more effective with his nerve damage fixed?
- You don't think work over the summer, plus training camp with his new team will make any difference at all with Gay?
- You don't think Casey being given free reins, and not constrained by BC makes a difference?

I disagree with all of those. It remains to be seen what difference all of these things will make, but to keep chanting this "34 win team" refrain is nothing short of kindergarten logic.

Not to mention Rudy's corrective eye surgery.

[p00ka]

You're right. If we can extrapolate our post Rudy Gay record to a full 82 game season, and pay no attention to the meaningless 7 of 8 win stretch at the end of the season against teams that were largely mailing it in, then we'll be 41-41.

Much, much better.

Good lord. Follow a rebuttal to Dick & Jane level logic, with yet more of it. I'm not going to get into all the differences, but:
- You don't think Jonas will be much better than his rookie year?
- You don't think Ross will be better than his rookie year?
- You don't think Acy will be better?
- You don't think DeMar's work will bring more improvements?
- You don't think Bargs departure will make a positive difference? Were you campaigning for him to be kept, or campaigning that his departure would be addition by subtraction?
- You don't think Novak's 3 pt shooting changes a thing?
- You don't think Psycho T makes our front line a lot tougher?
- You don't think Fields can be much more effective with his nerve damage fixed?
- You don't think work over the summer, plus training camp with his new team will make any difference at all with Gay?
- You don't think Casey being given free reins, and not constrained by BC makes a difference?

I disagree with all of those. It remains to be seen what difference all of these things will make, but to keep chanting this "34 win team" refrain is nothing short of kindergarten logic.

[Xixak]

You're right. If we can extrapolate our post Rudy Gay record to a full 82 game season, and pay no attention to the meaningless 7 of 8 win stretch at the end of the season against teams that were largely mailing it in, then we'll be 41-41.

Much, much better.

Actually we were 17-15 in the 32 games Gay started which rounds up to 44 wins in an 82 game season, but sure make stuff up to suit your point.

In the meaningless stretch you referred to we played:

Chicago (2x): Had 3 starters (Deng & Noah out), Butler and Boozer played over 40 minutes, pretty sure they were still trying to win since they only finished 1 game ahead of ATL. For the second game Deng was back (34 mins) and we beat them again. Valanciunas did not play in the 2nd game.

Brooklyn: Nets missing G-Force, but aside from that fully healthy. We had 8 active players. No Ross or Val, Acy was the first guy off the bench.


It was only really a meaningless last 2 games with Boston/Atlanta playing their starters less than 20 minutes.

[Fully]

The "34 win team crap" again. To paint this team, going into this year vs last year, as a 34 win team, is Dick & Jane kindergarten level reasoning. Before you ask, I can't be bothered to point out all the different factors again. It's simplistic crap, man.

You're right. If we can extrapolate our post Rudy Gay record to a full 82 game season, and pay no attention to the meaningless 7 of 8 win stretch at the end of the season against teams that were largely mailing it in, then we'll be 41-41.

Much, much better.

[Xixak]

The "34 win team crap" again. To paint this team, going into this year vs last year, as a 34 win team, is Dick & Jane kindergarten level reasoning. Before you ask, I can't be bothered to point out all the different factors again. It's simplistic crap, man.

I think he was referring to last season where we won 34 games.

[Xixak]

Having moved from virtual sea level to same elevation as Denver, I can vouch for the effects. There is no question in my mind that it gives the Nuggets an advantage in home games. And many do forget it. That being said, the topic was TALENT, not how many wins to expect.

This... I didn't say we could be a near 60-win team, I just said we have more offensive talent, which isn't a ridiculous statement at all if you look at the two teams.

Lowry/DeMar/Gay/Amir vs. Lawson/Iggy/Gallo/Faried is basically a wash offensively, I don't think anyone here is gonna argue that hopefully. Lowry is a better defender and rebounder than Lawson, Iggy is slightly better than Gay on D, Gallinari and DeRozan are both mediocre, Amir is a better defender than Faried but worse on the glass, and Koufos is about even with JV as a defender and rebounder.

Then you're talking about Jonas vs. Koufos on offense... let's be real here who's the better offensive player? Especially next season for Toronto?

Admittedly Denver's depth and the elevation allow them to maximize this philosophy better than we could, but we don't need to copy them. This thread was about attacking the rim more, and I was giving an example of a team that successfully uses that strategy.

[BobLoblaw]

This was an interesting thread. Should've kept the tanking discussion in the other thread, imo.