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Could Matt Bonner return to the Raptors?

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  • #16
    white men can't jump wrote: View Post
    It's not like there was significant slippage in his play or physical ability. I mean, I don't think anyone expects he'd be more than a 3rd stringer, but I'd take him in that role over Novak, who can't defend, can't rebound, is paper thin, actually shot a worse 3% than Bonner last year, and is 31 years old. Bonner has been a reliable role player his whole career. Novak just got popular in the NY spotlight despite the fact that he's one of the most limited players in the league, which is why he never sticks anywhere. Also at this stage, Bonner would probably be cheaper, because Novak's contract is pretty bad, and only looks good to Toronto fans because we got him for Bargs.
    I'm not advocating Novak over Bonner

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    • #17
      Matt52 wrote: View Post
      I'm not advocating Novak over Bonner
      I didn't think so, but it did sound like you were basically saying Bonner is washed up. I didn't see any indication of that in his play last year. He was not asked to contribute as much last year, but he was still perfectly capable of playing his role effectively.

      Novak I just threw out there because for some reason people think he and Bonner play the same role. Only partly on offense. Even Bonner tends to do a bit more than just shoot 3s...Novak has barely attempted 2 pointers in his career. 3 pters have made up 77 % of Novak's career FGAs. They've been 51% of Bonner's FGAs. It's not because Bonner goes rogue, or because Novak is such an amazing shooter he should never shoot other shots...it's because Novak is essentially useless in every single way on the basketball court other than shooting 3s. He's a really, really limited player.

      The difference between a guy like Bonner and a guy like Novak is that Bonner's general all around ability being better makes him valuable as a depth player who can step up and fill a bigger role, at least temporarily. Novak is basically incapable of being more than a 3rd stringer/specialist. I mean, if Amir and/or Hansbrough got injured, could you imagine the nightmare of Novak playing 25-30 minutes a night at PF? Or even at SF since I could probably cross him over with one hand tied behind my back (really not bragging about my ball skills here)?

      Novak is an awful player to depend on in your top 8, maybe even 9, again, in case you need a depth player to step into the rotation. Bonner can do that at least competently. That's why I think of Acy as hopefully being that type. If his shot keeps improving even just inside the 3 pt line, he's got the effort/energy level that you know he'll always be ready to play his hardest, and he's got just enough different skills to be useful in a variety of situations, even if he's more limited than whoever he'd be replacing.

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      • #18
        white men can't jump wrote: View Post
        I didn't think so, but it did sound like you were basically saying Bonner is washed up. I didn't see any indication of that in his play last year. He was not asked to contribute as much last year, but he was still perfectly capable of playing his role effectively.

        Novak I just threw out there because for some reason people think he and Bonner play the same role. Only partly on offense. Even Bonner tends to do a bit more than just shoot 3s...Novak has barely attempted 2 pointers in his career. 3 pters have made up 77 % of Novak's career FGAs. They've been 51% of Bonner's FGAs. It's not because Bonner goes rogue, or because Novak is such an amazing shooter he should never shoot other shots...it's because Novak is essentially useless in every single way on the basketball court other than shooting 3s. He's a really, really limited player.

        The difference between a guy like Bonner and a guy like Novak is that Bonner's general all around ability being better makes him valuable as a depth player who can step up and fill a bigger role, at least temporarily. Novak is basically incapable of being more than a 3rd stringer/specialist. I mean, if Amir and/or Hansbrough got injured, could you imagine the nightmare of Novak playing 25-30 minutes a night at PF? Or even at SF since I could probably cross him over with one hand tied behind my back (really not bragging about my ball skills here)?

        Novak is an awful player to depend on in your top 8, maybe even 9, again, in case you need a depth player to step into the rotation. Bonner can do that at least competently. That's why I think of Acy as hopefully being that type. If his shot keeps improving even just inside the 3 pt line, he's got the effort/energy level that you know he'll always be ready to play his hardest, and he's got just enough different skills to be useful in a variety of situations, even if he's more limited than whoever he'd be replacing.
        I didn't even think of him being washed up.

        I was thinking more along the lines of he is 34 at the end of next season.

        The Raptors are still a couple of seasons from competing if they stick with current core.

        If they blow it up they are 3 seasons (minimum) from competing assuming an all-star talent comes their way in the draft.

        Nothing against the Red Rocket I just don't see him as a useful at 36/37/38. I could be very wrong though and it wouldn't be the first time.

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        • #19
          Matt52 wrote: View Post
          I didn't even think of him being washed up.

          I was thinking more along the lines of he is 34 at the end of next season.

          The Raptors are still a couple of seasons from competing if they stick with current core.

          If they blow it up they are 3 seasons (minimum) from competing assuming an all-star talent comes their way in the draft.

          Nothing against the Red Rocket I just don't see him as a useful at 36/37/38. I could be very wrong though and it wouldn't be the first time.
          Why isn't Bonner a good piece to have in any situation though? Why do you have to be competing for it to make sense to acquire him? Because of his age? Just because they might rebuild, it doesn't mean every player on the team has to be a young guy. And in fact, lacking veterans who bring professionalism and effort every game can help create an awful environment for developing guys. I mean, I don't think they should go after him, since they have no room at PF, but if they did have a hole he's a pretty good piece to slot in both as a player (a deep bench player) and a very high-character guy who'd be good for the program.

          Shit, this is why I'm not that convinced Cleveland is going anywhere special. When you watch them play, they play like a bunch of young, talented guys who want to prove themselves as NBAers, or prove that they can be/become stars more than they want to sacrifice, be coached properly, and learn how to win as a team. They don't need to stack their team with vets, but there's no accountability, no leadership, no professionalism, no chemistry...One could say they've managed their team well in accumulating talent and managing their assets, but I can't say that their program is definitely heading in the right direction. They'd really need to show a big step forward this year to convince me of that, and not just in the win column, but also in how they play. I also think their program took a step backwards replacing Byron Scott with Mike Brown.

          Of course, for Toronto as currently constructed, Acy is the best of both worlds. For the most part, he plays like a vet, or at least someone who'll be playing like a 10 year vet by his 3rd or 4th season. Knows his limitations, is an excellent teammate and locker room character, is coachable, and so he knows how to have an impact playing within such limitations and within the system....but also he's young enough that maybe he has some room to grow skills a little bit. He clearly cares about winning and his team more than about his stats and himself, so he'll have a positive impact on other young players and the development program in general.
          Last edited by white men can't jump; Sat Aug 17, 2013, 12:31 PM.

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          • #20
            white men can't jump wrote: View Post
            Why isn't Bonner a good piece to have in any situation though? Why do you have to be competing for it to make sense to acquire him? Because of his age? Just because they might rebuild, it doesn't mean every player on the team has to be a young guy. And in fact, lacking veterans who bring professionalism and effort every game can help create an awful environment for developing guys. I mean, I don't think they should go after him, since they have no room at PF, but if they did have a hole he's a pretty good piece to slot in both as a player (a deep bench player) and a very high-character guy who'd be good for the program.

            Shit, this is why I'm not that convinced Cleveland is going anywhere special. When you watch them play, they play like a bunch of young, talented guys who want to prove themselves as NBAers, or prove that they can be/become stars more than they want to sacrifice, be coached properly, and learn how to win as a team. They don't need to stack their team with vets, but there's no accountability, no leadership, no professionalism, no chemistry...One could say they've managed their team well in accumulating talent and managing their assets, but I can't say that their program is definitely heading in the right direction. They'd really need to show a big step forward this year to convince me of that, and not just in the win column, but also in how they play. I also think their program took a step backwards replacing Byron Scott with Mike Brown.

            Of course, for Toronto as currently constructed, Acy is the best of both worlds. For the most part, he plays like a vet, or at least someone who'll be playing like a 10 year vet by his 3rd or 4th season. Knows his limitations, is an excellent teammate and locker room character, is coachable, and so he knows how to have an impact playing within such limitations and within the system....but also he's young enough that maybe he has some room to grow skills a little bit. He clearly cares about winning and his team more than about his stats and himself, so he'll have a positive impact on other young players and the development program in general.
            My opinion is based on Ujiri's shown philosophy to have projects at the end of the bench rather than established, older, and possibly declining veterans.

            One thing the Raptors have going for them is young veterans who appear to be very professional (Amir, DD, Gay). IN addition they have JV who by all accounts lives and breathes basketball striving to be his best and listen to his coaches.

            I don't see a Blatche, McGee, Young under Arenas-like situation brewing in Toronto.

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            • #21
              Matt52 wrote: View Post
              My opinion is based on Ujiri's shown philosophy to have projects at the end of the bench rather than established, older, and possibly declining veterans.

              One thing the Raptors have going for them is young veterans who appear to be very professional (Amir, DD, Gay). IN addition they have JV who by all accounts lives and breathes basketball striving to be his best and listen to his coaches.

              I don't see a Blatche, McGee, Young under Arenas-like situation brewing in Toronto.
              Ujiri's philosophy though also made a lot of sense when he took over Denver and they had some vets in key roles. It makes more sense in that case to have youth behind vets. But you don't need to only have youth behind youth.

              And I agree about the youth in Toronto. Generally pretty good culture abrewin

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              • #22
                white men can't jump wrote: View Post
                Ujiri's philosophy though also made a lot of sense when he took over Denver and they had some vets in key roles. It makes more sense in that case to have youth behind vets. But you don't need to only have youth behind youth.

                And I agree about the youth in Toronto. Generally pretty good culture abrewin
                The only guys over 26 on Denver:

                2012-13 were Miller (36) and AI (29).
                2011-12 were Miller (35), Nene (29), Anderson (33), and Harrington (31).
                2010-11 were Miller (34), Nene (28), Anderson (32), Harrington (30), Ely (32), Carter (35), Martin (33), Williams (27).

                In the three years MU was in Denver you could see the team get progressively younger.


                Like I said, I did not mean to imply bashing Bonner. Just don't get the vibe MU is one for mid-30 something end of benchers. I could be very wrong and I'm sure each situation is different. Based on the house cleaning of the front office, I also don't think the nostalgia of Bonner is going to influence MU either.

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                • #23
                  Matt52 wrote: View Post
                  The only guys over 26 on Denver:

                  2012-13 were Miller (36) and AI (29).
                  2011-12 were Miller (35), Nene (29), Anderson (33), and Harrington (31).
                  2010-11 were Miller (34), Nene (28), Anderson (32), Harrington (30), Ely (32), Carter (35), Martin (33), Williams (27).

                  In the three years MU was in Denver you could see the team get progressively younger.


                  Like I said, I did not mean to imply bashing Bonner. Just don't get the vibe MU is one for mid-30 something end of benchers. I could be very wrong and I'm sure each situation is different. Based on the house cleaning of the front office, I also don't think the nostalgia of Bonner is going to influence MU either.
                  Many of these guys were main rotation players. This is not the case in Toronto where the oldest major piece of the rotation figures to be....Tyler Hansbrough at 28? I'm not saying every reserve should be old, but it also isn't necessarily great if they are all unproven young pieces.

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