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Are we tanking or is Casey just stupid? Why is JV getting backup minutes?

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  • #76
    peanutwoozle wrote: View Post
    You need more luck than anything. That is the main reason why it worked for OKC. I don't like counting on luck to be on our side anymore in the draft either.

    On your second point, then we should get rid of that nincompoop of a head coach first to see if that does anything (to me, that should be the first step right now, because anyone who quits when his team is down by 2 with 20 seconds left should be fired immediately)

    you only get a rookie contract for 4 years, after that, you better be willing to pay up, and we'll be a tax team again in no time in case you have forgotten.

    I hope you don't mean you are willing to settle for Mourning and the two Williams's for the return in the trades for our pieces though, because if you are, I am going to barf.
    OKC lucked out on Durant sure.. but they didn't on Westbrook or Harden. Those were great picks.

    It's not just the coach. They can get rid of him but you still have a flawed set of players and a system.. a set of players that might take you to the first round of the playoffs. But how do you improve from there? Again no cap flexibility. So if the core is kept together what's the next step? Indiana was able to get David West. We won't have the room to get a David West.

    Well that deal was bad at the time.. but if you included multiple first round picks sure, sign me up! Those picks can then be used to select additional players in the draft or to use them as commodity for a future trade.

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    • #77
      planetmars wrote: View Post
      OKC lucked out on Durant sure.. but they didn't on Westbrook or Harden. Those were great picks.

      It's not just the coach. They can get rid of him but you still have a flawed set of players and a system.. a set of players that might take you to the first round of the playoffs. But how do you improve from there? Again no cap flexibility. So if the core is kept together what's the next step? Indiana was able to get David West. We won't have the room to get a David West.

      Well that deal was bad at the time.. but if you included multiple first round picks sure, sign me up! Those picks can then be used to select additional players in the draft or to use them as commodity for a future trade.
      didn't luck out on Westbrook or Harden? That's news to me, I posted something in another forum asking what would have happened if Miami took Westbrook instead of Beasley, or what if Memphis didn't buy that whole Hasheem Thabeet hype and draft Harden?

      Won't Rudy be an expiring next summer? We can trade him if he doesn't opt out. Lowry also comes off the books, so there's two of the "flawed" players out of the way.

      Those picks better be from the 1-10 range.

      Comment


      • #78
        Welcome to the forum!

        peanutwoozle wrote: View Post
        With the amount of teams tanking and only 4 playoff spots (IMO) locked in, there is a chance we can get in, gain some ground on other teams below us, and maybe FAs will start to see some potential with this team (there's a better chance at that than winning a top 3 pick)
        The two times in this franchise's history when you could say we showed real potential, (Vince's era, and then the very beginning of Colangelo's reign) the only free agents we were ever able to attract were bit pieces, or starters past their prime. And obviously, we never signed any decent free agents when we weren't showing potential.

        Counter that with the fact that, over the same timeframe, we've drafted three probable hall of famers (Mcgrady, Carter, Bosh), two high level rotation players who started on championship contending teams (Stoudamire and Camby), and another player who looks to be heading to at least that former category of career (JV).

        You could even argue that we've never once signed a free agent who played at a higher level here than Mo Pete.

        So we've clearly had much better "luck" with the draft so far.

        peanutwoozle wrote: View Post
        Also, if we tank for Wiggins, our current players, like JV, will get cranky, how do you think he would feel about someone telling him to play poorly or if he found out that management was trying to lose?
        No one knows how different players would react. If I were a player, I wouldn't get cranky if I felt that management was competent and had a plan. And if I were management, I would be wary of players that didn't have the resilience to handle a couple of years of losing.

        peanutwoozle wrote: View Post
        how do you think he would feel about someone telling him to play poorly
        I don't think that anyone thinks this is happening.
        Last edited by JimiCliff; Fri Nov 8, 2013, 02:19 PM.
        "Stop eating your sushi."
        "I do actually have a pair of Uggs."
        "I've had three cups of green tea tonight. I'm wired. I'm absolutely wired."
        - Jack Armstrong

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        • #79
          JimiCliff wrote: View Post
          Welcome to the forum!



          The two times in this franchise's history when you could say we showed real potential, (Vince's era, and then the very beginning of Colangelo's reign) the only free agents we were ever able to attract were bit pieces, or starters past their prime. And obviously, we never signed any decent free agents when we weren't showing potential.

          Counter that with the fact that, over the same timeframe, we've drafted three probable hall of famers (Mcgrady, Carter, Bosh), two high level rotation players who started on championship contending teams (Stoudamire and Camby), and another player who looks to be heading to at least that former category of career (JV).

          You could even argue that we've never once signed a free agent who played at a higher level here than Mo Pete.

          So we've clearly had much better "luck" with the draft so far.



          No one knows how different players would react. If I were a player, I wouldn't get cranky if I felt that management was competent and had a plan. And if I were management, I would be wary of players that didn't have the resilience to handle a couple of years of losing.



          I don't think that anyone thinks this is happening.
          When we had potential, management misevaluated and screwed things up, it's not that "players hate Canada" horse manure. If this tanking fails time after time like it is bound to, JV is going to be the next one to bolt because I'm sure he hates losing too. I wouldn't say we have had better luck in the draft, I don't call Bargnani and DeMar "good luck"

          There is no way players like being told by management that they are committed to losing, that just disrespects the player and gives our team a bad image or makes a bad image worse.

          Comment


          • #80
            peanutwoozle wrote: View Post
            When we had potential, management misevaluated and screwed things up, it's not that "players hate Canada" horse manure. If this tanking fails time after time like it is bound to, JV is going to be the next one to bolt because I'm sure he hates losing too. I wouldn't say we have had better luck in the draft, I don't call Bargnani and DeMar "good luck"

            There is no way players like being told by management that they are committed to losing, that just disrespects the player and gives our team a bad image or makes a bad image worse.
            Management hasn't, and never will, say that.

            Instead, our young/inexperienced players get a TON of minutes and we indirectly lose a lot of games.

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            • #81
              peanutwoozle wrote: View Post
              didn't luck out on Westbrook or Harden? That's news to me, I posted something in another forum asking what would have happened if Miami took Westbrook instead of Beasley, or what if Memphis didn't buy that whole Hasheem Thabeet hype and draft Harden?

              Won't Rudy be an expiring next summer? We can trade him if he doesn't opt out. Lowry also comes off the books, so there's two of the "flawed" players out of the way.

              Those picks better be from the 1-10 range.
              Again.. it's luck if you are in the top 3.. after that its homework and good management. Westbrook for example was not in the top 5 in most mock drafts:
              http://www.nba.com/draft2008/board/mock.html

              So Miami or Memphis taking him would have been a reach. Was it bad management on Miami's and Memphis's part to draft two duds? Yes of course, but that's why I'm happy we have a new GM that has a decent track record in his short career.

              Yes.. Rudy can opt out this year and will be an expiring next year.. so are you okay to remove two core players without getting any assets in return? If they do go and we have cap space (plus 35-40 wins) how do we improve? What's the next step? If you look at free agency its not looking very good in 2014 or 2015 unless you expect Lebron to be interested. If we trade them now, get picks or expiring contracts that don't improve the product on the court.. we will then be in a position to get a better pick which can then bring in a longer term asset on a rookie contract.

              This is Colangelo's team and he was fired. I don't see how this team remains in tact.. and I don't see how this team can improve from a win-loss perspective when trading most of Bryan's core.

              As for the picks.. I doubt it will be in the 1-10 range. Most teams are creating protections on draft picks. An additional pick is still an awesome asset as long as it's in the first round.

              Comment


              • #82
                peanutwoozle wrote: View Post
                When we had potential, management misevaluated and screwed things up, it's not that "players hate Canada" horse manure. If this tanking fails time after time like it is bound to, JV is going to be the next one to bolt because I'm sure he hates losing too. I wouldn't say we have had better luck in the draft, I don't call Bargnani and DeMar "good luck"

                There is no way players like being told by management that they are committed to losing, that just disrespects the player and gives our team a bad image or makes a bad image worse.
                I never said it was - I think that angle is overblown as well.

                But that doesn't get away from the fact that it is incredibly hard to sign quality free agents, as 20 years of experience has shown us.
                "Stop eating your sushi."
                "I do actually have a pair of Uggs."
                "I've had three cups of green tea tonight. I'm wired. I'm absolutely wired."
                - Jack Armstrong

                Comment


                • #83
                  JimiCliff wrote: View Post
                  I never said it was - I think that angle is overblown as well.

                  But that doesn't get away from the fact that it is incredibly hard to sign quality free agents, as 20 years of experience has shown us.
                  that's why evaluating is more important, that's why we have struck out in free agency year after year.

                  Comment


                  • #84
                    peanutwoozle wrote: View Post
                    that's why evaluating is more important, that's why we have struck out in free agency year after year.
                    That could be part of it, but it's certainly more complicated than just that.
                    "Stop eating your sushi."
                    "I do actually have a pair of Uggs."
                    "I've had three cups of green tea tonight. I'm wired. I'm absolutely wired."
                    - Jack Armstrong

                    Comment


                    • #85
                      planetmars wrote: View Post
                      Again.. it's luck if you are in the top 3.. after that its homework and good management. Westbrook for example was not in the top 5 in most mock drafts:
                      http://www.nba.com/draft2008/board/mock.html

                      So Miami or Memphis taking him would have been a reach. Was it bad management on Miami's and Memphis's part to draft two duds? Yes of course, but that's why I'm happy we have a new GM that has a decent track record in his short career.

                      Yes.. Rudy can opt out this year and will be an expiring next year.. so are you okay to remove two core players without getting any assets in return? If they do go and we have cap space (plus 35-40 wins) how do we improve? What's the next step? If you look at free agency its not looking very good in 2014 or 2015 unless you expect Lebron to be interested. If we trade them now, get picks or expiring contracts that don't improve the product on the court.. we will then be in a position to get a better pick which can then bring in a longer term asset on a rookie contract.

                      This is Colangelo's team and he was fired. I don't see how this team remains in tact.. and I don't see how this team can improve from a win-loss perspective when trading most of Bryan's core.

                      As for the picks.. I doubt it will be in the 1-10 range. Most teams are creating protections on draft picks. An additional pick is still an awesome asset as long as it's in the first round.
                      You said only KD was luck, then you say luck when in the top 3, Harden was a 3rd overall pick just so you know.

                      Do you know what we can do with that cap space, take on salary with picks (or draftees), example, Cleveland with Baron Davis.

                      you mention cheap rookie contracts, they won't stay cheap for long, sooner or later, they will expect you to pay up sooner or later and we'll be back at the tax line in no time, so we should tank for these guys, make the playoffs for a few years, but when it comes time to pay to keep them, get rid of them so we don't have to pay them too much? OKC had that problem with Harden did they not? What happened there?

                      Comment


                      • #86
                        peanutwoozle wrote: View Post
                        You said only KD was luck, then you say luck when in the top 3, Harden was a 3rd overall pick just so you know.

                        Do you know what we can do with that cap space, take on salary with picks (or draftees), example, Cleveland with Baron Davis.

                        you mention cheap rookie contracts, they won't stay cheap for long, sooner or later, they will expect you to pay up sooner or later and we'll be back at the tax line in no time, so we should tank for these guys, make the playoffs for a few years, but when it comes time to pay to keep them, get rid of them so we don't have to pay them too much? OKC had that problem with Harden did they not? What happened there?
                        Welcome to the forums, by the way.

                        The tanking debates have been ongoing here for well over a year now. You raise a lot of good points many of which have been discussed before. This link will take you to the biggest threads on the topic if you care to read up on many people's views here.

                        One point I'll raise to your current string of posts on the tanking angle is that the Raptors don't necessarily have to rely purely on the draft. The basis of any trade for an all-star is draft picks, prospects, and cap relief. Accumulating assets might allow the Raptors to get the player they hope to get in the draft via alternative means.

                        The reality is the worse thing the Raptors could do is stick with this core. The first 5 games are painful reminders. Much of the discussion on tank versus build has died off. I can only assume it is too obvious to the majority what is currently here is not going to work. If it was, Colangelo would still be in charge.

                        Comment


                        • #87
                          [QUOTE=planetmars;244557]Again.. it's luck if you are in the top 3.. after that its homework and good management. Westbrook for example was not in the top 5 in most mock drafts:
                          http://www.nba.com/draft2008/board/mock.html

                          So Miami or Memphis taking him would have been a reach. Was it bad management on Miami's and Memphis's part to draft two duds? Yes of course, but that's why I'm happy we have a new GM that has a decent track record in his short career.

                          Yes.. Rudy can opt out this year and will be an expiring next year.. so are you okay to remove two core players without getting any assets in return? If they do go and we have cap space (plus 35-40 wins) how do we improve? What's the next step? If you look at free agency its not looking very good in 2014 or 2015 unless you expect Lebron to be interested. If we trade them now, get picks or expiring contracts that don't improve the product on the court.. we will then be in a position to get a better pick which can then bring in a longer term asset on a rookie contract.

                          This is Colangelo's team and he was fired. I don't see how this team remains in tact.. and I don't see how this team can improve from a win-loss perspective when trading most of Bryan's core.

                          As for the picks.. I doubt it will be in the 1-10 range. Most teams are creating protections on draft picks. An additional pick is still an awesome asset as long as it's in the first round.[/QUOT
                          Then what is the point of getting the 11th pick? We wait 3 years to develop and are no farther ahead...just 8 years removed from the playoffs.

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