A few realities about building like the Pacers

[BobLoblaw]

Well, when I think `build like the Pacers` I think more about team culture, and less about specific moves.
Just hearing Larry Bird talk about the team, you can see that it starts with him.
This is what I would like the Raptors to emulate.

Now, that's a very unique situation because IT'S LARRY BIRD.
I understand that.
But this is what I like about the Pacers, and make no mistake that it is the root of their strength.

They are like a family.
Bird talks about instilling the attitude in players that the game isn't just about them.
It's much bigger than them.
It's all the people involved in the organization, the fans, etc.
He makes the players feel (or realize, more aptly) that they are really competing for something.

They are a team.
A real time, and one of - as I see it - only two in the NBA at present.
If we want people to get over the Toronto thing, I think establishing this type of mentality would be a very wise way to do it.

Just to add, it goes up to the ownership too. Look at the last 25 years or so. No drama in the upper ranks. Other than that ~2005 team where they had just too many crazy or immature people, no drama among players either. Loyalty and stability. If they have to part ways with someone, they do it in the most respectful manner possible. They don't go around telling stories about how they didn't get along with the last GM.

And then in the long term, they are rewarded for it. People want to work there. Their GMs (Walsh, Bird) stick around or come back. They get great assistant GMs (Bird, now Pritchard) who later take over as GMs. Their latest coaches: Larry Brown, Bird, Isiah, Carlisle, O'Brien, Vogel. It's a strong group, even Isiah and O'Brien were pretty good. Players stay.

There's an anecdote that's been around for years that the Pacers never bid on restricted free agents because their owner doesn't let them; because he thinks it's rude. It may be true, or there may be more to it. But it kind of shows how the Pacers are perceived. Their ownership has a certain way of doing business and communicating, and it ripples down.

[mcHAPPY]

A lot of people throw around the comparison of building like the Indiana Pacers. To those people, please stop!

The Pacers unraveled in 2006-07 as the later to be known as championship winning coach Rick Carlisle flamed out due to a rash of off court incidents, Jermaine O'Neal's knees saying, "Goodnight all!" and a mid season trade that saw 3 of the top 7 minutes played in the rotation traded. Pacers went 35-47 and no playoffs for just the 2nd time in 19 years.

In 2007-08 they continued to wait for O'Neal to return to form but with no luck. New coach, similar result: 36-46. Blow up begun as O'Neal was traded to Toronto. A small draft night trade that sees the #13 pick (Bayless) turned in to a young proven back up PG (Jarrett) and 2 prospects (Josh McRoberts and Brandon Rush). Granger in a break out season becomes face of franchise.

In 2008-09 smart trades and picks to start the rebuild: dead weight out and smaller contracts in in the JO trade along with a draft pick who became Roy Hibbert. Own draft pick yields Tyler Hansbrough at #13. Granger emerges after breakout '08 season with ASG selection. Nesterovic and Daniels ($14M) come off the books.

**Intermission: What do we see thus far? 1 year in to the rebuild we see numerous young future NBA rotational talent (Jarrett, McRoberts, Rush, Hansbrough and a future defensive anchor at C). Huge overpaid NBA contracts shed for smaller contracts (mostly overpaid) and assets. Nesterovic and Daniels expire ($14M) and Granger's contract extension kicks in ($9.9M)**

In 2009-10, year 2 of the rebuild continues. Pacers slog to a 32-50 record and the #10 pick (George) and a second round pick (Stephenson). $11M expiring contract of Troy Murphy is traded to the summer of 2010 version of Eric Bledsoe (Darren Collison) and the expensive fading fast James Posey. Financial flexibility cashes in the most coveted backup PG in the league (it didn't pan out but they had the flexibility to do it thanks to large expiring contract). No rush to overspend on free agents and no rush to keep players signed to lucrative offer sheets (Jarrett Jack).

**2nd Intermission: After 3 years out of the playoffs the Pacers have established a core of Hibbert (23), George (20), Stephenson (20), Hansbrough (23), and Rush (25) with an established NBA all-star in Granger with > $10M per year rolling off the books as contracts expire - this is the very essence of being opportunistic and patient**

In 2010-11 they get off to a rough start 17-27 and coach is fired. Frank Vogel takes over and finishes year 20-18. Pacers, incredibly, make playoffs with 37 wins as the 8th seed in the 4th season since the blow up (trading JO) was initiated. $30M in expiring contracts comes off the books. Address PG depth with trade of #15 pick to SA for George Hill.

In lockout delayed 2011-12 season, Pacers use enormous cap space to sign veteran free agent David West prior to start of season. Finish 3rd in the East with .636 win percentage (equivalent of 52 wins). Miles Plumbee is drafted #26. This season also has $13M in expiring contracts which become Roy Hibbert's max extension. They also had about $8M in cap space at the start of the season and were able to acquire the expiring contract of Leandro Barbosa for a 2nd round pick thanks to the financial flexibility.


REBUILD OVER


So why aren't the Raptors the Pacers?

Well yes they have a promising C but that is where the comparison ends.

The Pacers identified a talent to build around in Granger who was an all-star scoring 26ppg in his 4th NBA season. The Raptors? No, Gay and DD do not compare.

The Pacers had a cast of overpaid NBA veterans that kept them competitive for so many years. While those players were overpaid, they were actually productive NBA players (Dunleavey, Murphy, Ford *damn injuries*). The Raptors have had the likes of Bargnani

The Pacers had a bench of future NBA rotational players in Hansbrough, Stephenson, McRoberts, Rush.

Most importantly the Pacers had the core of their current team and 1 current/2 future all-stars (Granger, Hibbert, George) on the roster 2 years after the rebuild began. The Raptors do not have an all-star on the roster and have not had one since Bosh left in 2010.

The Pacers identified the pieces that were not a part of the future and let them expire or . The Raptors held on (Bargnani).

The Pacers were patient and didn't waste cap space, exceptions, or expiring contracts on instant gratification until they had a core in place. Toronto traded for O'Neal, then Marion, then traded that cap space for Hedon't, then traded for Barbosa (who ironically ended up on Indiana!); gave fat extensions to non-all star talent (Amir, DD); traded expirings for overpaid chucker (Gay); traded lottery pick to get a starting PG to hopefully make playoffs vs traded pick to get depth and a compliment to the playoff core already in place; used every bit of cap space possible to chase flavours of the summer in Hedon't, Nash, and Fields; used MLE to sign the likes of Jack, Kleiza, Kapono, etc.

The Pacers were a playoff team 5 years after their previous appearance and 3 years after deciding to start over. The Raptors have no been a playoff team in 5 years and what looks like a possible 6th year.


Sh!t this is depressing but here goes:

If you want to build like Indy this is 2006-07.

If you really want to build like the Indiana Pacers you're going to have to recognize how it started for them: they traded nearly half their rotation when it became obvious they were going nowhere and then their 'star' overpaid face of the franchise player when it was obvious no wins were coming with him as the cornerstone.

For Toronto to get the ball rolling like Indy it is time to send Gay (star) away and possibly DD, Lowry, Hansbrough, and Amir (veteran guys who have been with the team for multiple years, not on rookie contracts, playing significant minutes in the rotation).

We've got 3 years of building coming up and lets hope we find franchise talent at #10, an all-star at #17, and a possible break out star in the 2nd round. Lets hope everyone is alright with Toronto still being a lottery team during all-star festivities. Lets hope everyone is alright with waiting until 2017 to make that free agent splash. Lets hope everyone is alright with patience and slow steady moves with internal growth and development. Lets hope everyone realizes the 5 year playoff drought currently being experienced has another 3 years to go on the Indy model.


In a loaded 2014 draft, the chances of the Raptors getting their Paul George is going to be significantly higher at the top. The reality is the Pacers hit lottery gold despite where they selected after a dismal 32 win season. For all those talking about luck needed to get your franchise player, you need more of it at the bottom of the lottery than the top.

Indiana essentially turned their franchise around with a #17 (Granger), #17 (Hibbert), and #10 (George) pick while playing some mediocre basketball. They were very lucky considering their draft positions, they were very patient financially, and they had terrific scouting/drafting.

If this is the road you want to travel to build a winner, get comfortable, it is likely to be a long ride. Like everything nothing is guaranteed and the Raptors haven't even started the process of 'building'.

Funny to read things with the benefit of hindsight. Remember this was written 1 month prior to Gay trade. As it turns out, the Raptors might actually be on the Pacer path now! **Lets just hope Masai doesn't go all in with epic fail (Turner, Bynum), JV doesn't become mentally frail (Hibbert), and nothing like a Paul George break occurs.**

So why aren't the Raptors the Pacers?

Well yes they have a promising C but that is where the comparison ends.

Hibbert = JV

The Pacers identified a talent to build around in Granger who was an all-star scoring 26ppg in his 4th NBA season. The Raptors? No, Gay and DD do not compare.

Turns out, it took a little longer, but DD and Lowry have since been named all-stars. Not to be too negative here but neither are on Granger level though....but there are two of them!

The Pacers had a cast of overpaid NBA veterans that kept them competitive for so many years. While those players were overpaid, they were actually productive NBA players (Dunleavey, Murphy, Ford *damn injuries*). The Raptors have had the likes of Bargnani

No overpaid, established vets hamstringed by injuries. As it turns out, the star was traded (Gay) and a host of role players were returned (Salmons, PP, Vasquez, Hayes) and further became (Lou, Bebe, PP, Vasquez, Hayes). Indiana's players were better but older. Patterson is the only one on good contract, productive, and relatively young. Ironically Raptors have Hansbrough now.

The Pacers had a bench of future NBA rotational players in Hansbrough, Stephenson, McRoberts, Rush.

This is key. Do the Raptors have anything in their current youth? What will become of Bebe, Bruno, DeAndre Daniels? What about the 2015 pick and 2016 pickS?

Most importantly the Pacers had the core of their current team and 1 current/2 future all-stars (Granger, Hibbert, George) on the roster 2 years after the rebuild began. The Raptors do not have an all-star on the roster and have not had one since Bosh left in 2010.

This has been rectified in terms of actually having an all-star. However both Raps all-stars have shown to be inconsistent. I think with a winning team JV eventually becomes an all-star.

The Pacers identified the pieces that were not a part of the future and let them expire or . The Raptors held on (Bargnani).

Will be interesting what happens with Lou and Amir this summer.

The Pacers were patient and didn't waste cap space, exceptions, or expiring contracts on instant gratification until they had a core in place. Toronto traded for O'Neal, then Marion, then traded that cap space for Hedon't, then traded for Barbosa (who ironically ended up on Indiana!); gave fat extensions to non-all star talent (Amir, DD); traded expirings for overpaid chucker (Gay); traded lottery pick to get a starting PG to hopefully make playoffs vs traded pick to get depth and a compliment to the playoff core already in place; used every bit of cap space possible to chase flavours of the summer in Hedon't, Nash, and Fields; used MLE to sign the likes of Jack, Kleiza, Kapono, etc.

If patience is going to bite Masai, it might be from having too much. Holding pat at the trade deadline was a good decision, in my opinion.

The Pacers were a playoff team 5 years after their previous appearance and 3 years after deciding to start over. The Raptors have no been a playoff team in 5 years and what looks like a possible 6th year.

As it turns out the Raptors did make the playoffs after 5 years.


Sh!t this is depressing but here goes:

If you want to build like Indy this is 2006-07.

If you really want to build like the Indiana Pacers you're going to have to recognize how it started for them: they traded nearly half their rotation when it became obvious they were going nowhere and then their 'star' overpaid face of the franchise player when it was obvious no wins were coming with him as the cornerstone.

Raps did this with Gay. Might it need to be done again with Lowry or DD?

For Toronto to get the ball rolling like Indy it is time to send Gay (star) away and possibly DD, Lowry, Hansbrough, and Amir (veteran guys who have been with the team for multiple years, not on rookie contracts, playing significant minutes in the rotation).

More trades or not resigning might have to happen. Outside of JV, Raps are lacking in young ESTABLISHED talent.

We've got 3 years of building coming up and lets hope we find franchise talent at #10, an all-star at #17, and a possible break out star in the 2nd round. Lets hope everyone is alright with Toronto still being a lottery team during all-star festivities. Lets hope everyone is alright with waiting until 2017 to make that free agent splash. Lets hope everyone is alright with patience and slow steady moves with internal growth and development. Lets hope everyone realizes the 5 year playoff drought currently being experienced has another 3 years to go on the Indy model.

One move was all it took to make that paragraph ridiculous right now. So refreshing to hear Masai give credit to luck - it really was.

In a loaded 2014 draft, the chances of the Raptors getting their Paul George is going to be significantly higher at the top. The reality is the Pacers hit lottery gold despite where they selected after a dismal 32 win season. For all those talking about luck needed to get your franchise player, you need more of it at the bottom of the lottery than the top.

2014 draft didn't turn out to be all it was cracked up to be (jury still out on Parker, Embiid, and Randle). But history shows most top level talent is found in the top five of the draft.

Indiana essentially turned their franchise around with a #17 (Granger), #17 (Hibbert), and #10 (George) pick while playing some mediocre basketball. They were very lucky considering their draft positions, they were very patient financially, and they had terrific scouting/drafting.

Are the Raptors in the situation of the bold? Is their David West moment coming?

If this is the road you want to travel to build a winner, get comfortable, it is likely to be a long ride. Like everything nothing is guaranteed and the Raptors haven't even started the process of 'building'.

One month later, the process of 'building' began. But even as Masai recently acknowledged, it is just the start.

[mcHAPPY]

Oh and let's not forget that the pacers big jump coincided with firing an older, stubborn coach and replacing with an assistant getting first crack at NBA head coaching job.

[Nilanka]

Are we hoping Bruno turns into a Paul George?

[mcHAPPY]

Are we hoping Bruno turns into a Paul George?

No Durant.

Pope is george....next year.

[S.R.]

TBT! This should be a weekly feature.

Some of the specific variables are different, but it is interesting to think about the similarities. For sure the Raps are in a position now where they're a playoff caliber team (at least in the East) that needs to add talent to take the next step. Fortunately they have flexibility coming up with expirings and a rising cap - shedding bad contracts was accomplished immediately when Masai shipped out Bargs and Gay.

I don't know that we can predict at all what's going to happen the next two years - it feels like a crapshoot. Either re-sign some guys like Amir and Lou and have enough productive players on good contracts that you can swing a deal to acquire a #1 guy, or let some of those contracts expire and increase your cap space even further and try to get FA talent. It's a pretty big gamble either way, if trades aren't available to make your team better then there's nothing you can do but wait, and the FA market is so damn competitive now, a bunch of teams chase after any noteworthy FA. If Durant actually becomes available on the open market, 90% of the league will be trying to figure out how to sign him.

[yabadabayolo]

Damn you could not have been more wrong mchappy ! Damn

The power of hindsight I guess hehe. I remember reading that when u first wrote it and completely agreed with you.

[mcHAPPY]

Damn you could not have been more wrong mchappy ! Damn

The power of hindsight I guess hehe. I remember reading that when u first wrote it and completely agreed with you.

I thought I was spot on at the time.

There were many talking about building with what the Raptors had at that time. Yuck.



One month later, with the Gay trade, I was most definitely wrong.

Very real possibility the Raptors are on the Pacers path now.... with hopefully better and more sustained results.

[ceez]

Good post

[raptors999]

Don't see any similarities to the Pacers. They have a top SF and a really good defensive coach. They picked up a great glue guy in FA and developed a C to anchor the defense. Their previous franchise guy was dumped but he developed with the Pacers, only similar guy would be Derozan. Raptors could follow this path but they can follow a lot of others too. The next coach really determines where the team goes. Right now they can be any team with 2 playoff appearances like Portland or even the Brown Pistons except Carlisle is a good coach and Casey is utter garbage

[Scraptor]

What's more interesting than the comparison to the Raptors is whether or not you feel the Pacers model holds up. The only real core piece they have is Paul George imo. Hibbert is a total enigma. West is almost over the hill. George Hill is solid but probably needs a shot creator next to him and Stephenson is gone.

They probably should have dismantled and tried to rebuild around George but now they are looking pretty treadmillish with the way Cleveland has reloaded and other teams have improved. Goes to show how narrow the window is to compete these days.

[The_Warlord]

The most transformative move the Pacers made was bringing in a smart young coach and upgrading their PF position with a solid veteran who brought toughness and leadership to the team. This helped accelerate their growth and allowed them to take it to the next level.

[planetmars]

The most transformative move the Pacers made was bringing in a smart young coach and upgrading their PF position with a solid veteran who brought toughness and leadership to the team. This helped accelerate their growth and allowed them to take it to the next level.

That's exactly what the Raptors need to do as well.. if they get a new coach and a "prime David West" on this team.. they'll be competing for the #1/#2 seed in the East.

If only some how Masai could convince Paul Millsap to leave Atlanta and join the Raptors.

[mcHAPPY]

The most transformative move the Pacers made was bringing in a smart young coach and upgrading their PF position with a solid veteran who brought toughness and leadership to the team. This helped accelerate their growth and allowed them to take it to the next level.

Never going to be a carbon copy of one team to the next but the Raptors had more success early due to the East seeming to get worse each and every year.

I think these crucial steps to the Pacers evolution you mentioned above are coming the Raptors way.

Coach definitely needs to be replaced and a key free agent signing is hopefully one the way this year or next.

[octothorp]

What I appreciate about the Pacers model (and this is the new drum that I'm beating on this forum constantly about the direction of the Raptors right now), is that they got value in finding some great measurements guys who weren't seen as good 'intangibles' guys (Hibbert being an example of this, Stephenson too), and complimenting them with smart guys who make everyone around them better, guys like George and West who really understand the game at a deep level, and make guys around them better. Bebe, Bruno, Ross, Daniels, these are guys that are guys like Hibbert: where the body or athleticism is everything you want in an elite player, but with enough holes in their game to make them drop out of the lottery or even out of the first round.

We don't have our George yet, not in terms of an elite two-way allstar borderline-superstar guy (which we may never find), but in terms of a smart, cerebral player who can play a lot of minutes and bring up the play of everyone else around him at both ends. This is the great value to George and West, they made guys like Stephenson and Hibbert better than anyone thought they would be (Vogel deserves lots of credit for that too, but a coach needs the right guys on the floor who believe in him and understand his expectations perfectly). We've got some good physical specimens, athletic guys, but they'll go nowhere without the right leaders on this team. I like Lowry but his game doesn't elevate his teammates as much as we need to (and it's really hard to tell how much of this is Lowry and how much is the way Casey uses him). Amir does, but he doesn't stay healthy enough to be a big plus. DeRozan's game, as impressive as it is at times, doesn't consistently bring up the play of his teammates.

If you've got the right culture and approach to the game anchoring your locker-room and your guys on court, you can take a chance on high upside players who have attitude, personality, IQ questionmarks. Nowhere is that better demonstrated is the fact that they made Lance Stephenson look like a good NBA player, because they could keep his personality issues (which were well-documented before they drafted him) in check and get him to play within a system that was going to maximize his consider. Outside of that structure, Stephenson's game has completely fallen apart.

All of which is just to say that player-personnel-wise, this is an aspect of the roster that Ujiri needs to address, whether through the draft or free agency or trades.