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For the anti-tankers....What else should we do? SI's mailbag on tanking

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  • For the anti-tankers....What else should we do? SI's mailbag on tanking

    Interesting read. Same applies to Raptors: up to the cap with veteran players that aren't going to get you to the next level.

    http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/nba...bag/?eref=sihp

    Tank on my friends.
    Heir, Prince of Cambridge

    If you see KeonClark in the wasteland, please share your food and water with him.

  • #2
    It's Klaw Season. Time to hunt.

    Comment


    • #3
      Heir, Prince of Cambridge

      If you see KeonClark in the wasteland, please share your food and water with him.

      Comment


      • #4
        "They reinvested in their future."

        I like that.

        Also this:

        "I think there will be more focus on the draft in this new system,'' deputy commissioner Adam Silver, who will replace commissioner David Stern in February, told me last season. "Because we've made it more difficult to buy your way out of a jam than you could historically.''

        Ujiri could still take the asset accumulation approach (Houston) rather than almost completely unloading like Boston and Philly, but you have to have good contracts to do what Houston has done.
        "We're playing in a building." -- Kawhi Leonard

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        • #5
          S.R. wrote: View Post
          "They reinvested in their future."

          I like that.

          Also this:

          "I think there will be more focus on the draft in this new system,'' deputy commissioner Adam Silver, who will replace commissioner David Stern in February, told me last season. "Because we've made it more difficult to buy your way out of a jam than you could historically.''

          Ujiri could still take the asset accumulation approach (Houston) rather than almost completely unloading like Boston and Philly, but you have to have good contracts to do what Houston has done.
          But if you look at both of those teams they have done exactly that re: asset accumulation.

          Boston draft pick stash with 2014 pick to Dallas and 2017 pick swap with Brooklyn:

          2014 first round draft pick from Brooklyn
          Brooklyn will convey the less favorable of its 2014 1st round pick and Atlanta's 2014 1st round pick to Boston (via Atlanta's right to swap for Brooklyn) [Atlanta-Brooklyn, 7/11/2012 and then Boston-Brooklyn, 7/12/2013]

          2015 first round draft pick from L.A. Clippers
          L.A. Clippers' 2015 1st round pick to Boston [Boston-L.A. Clippers, 6/25/2013]

          2015 second round draft pick from Sacramento
          Sacramento's 2015 2nd round pick to Boston protected for selections 31-55 (if this pick falls within its protected range and is therefore not conveyed, then Sacramento's obligation to Boston will be extinguished) [Boston-Sacramento, 2/17/2009]

          2016 first round draft pick from Brooklyn
          Brooklyn's 2016 1st round pick to Boston [Boston-Brooklyn, 7/12/2013]

          2017 first round draft pick from Brooklyn
          Boston has the right to swap its 2017 1st round pick for Brooklyn's 2017 1st round pick; if Boston exercises this swap right, then Boston will convey its 2017 2nd round pick to Brooklyn protected for selections 31-45 (if this pick falls within its protected range and is therefore not conveyed, then Boston's obligation to Brooklyn will be extinguished) [Boston-Brooklyn, 7/12/2013]

          2017 second round draft pick from Sacramento
          Sacramento's 2017 2nd round pick to Boston protected for selections 31-55 (if this pick falls within its protected range and is therefore not conveyed, then Sacramento's obligation to Boston will be extinguished) [Boston-Sacramento, 2/24/2011]

          2018 first round draft pick from Brooklyn
          Brooklyn's 2018 1st round pick to Boston [Boston-Brooklyn, 7/12/2013]
          Philly is not as stacked as Boston but the protections they have on their 2014 and 2016 1st are lottery protected and they have Pelicans pick which is top 5 protected. There is a strong possibility the pick will be 8-10.

          Comment


          • #6
            Matt52 wrote: View Post
            But if you look at both of those teams they have done exactly that re: asset accumulation.

            Boston draft pick stash with 2014 pick to Dallas and 2017 pick swap with Brooklyn:



            Philly is not as stacked as Boston but the protections they have on their 2014 and 2016 1st are lottery protected and they have Pelicans pick which is top 5 protected. There is a strong possibility the pick will be 8-10.
            I guess I mean Boston and Philly have had a more extreme, short term clearing out of the previous roster, whereas Houston had a more gradual, patient accumulation of assets. For the Raptors it's the difference between trading half the roster this season (tanking?) and a more gradual transition that'll include trades as well as just allowing contracts to expire over the next couple of seasons.

            In both cases you want to end up with picks and prospects in place of your current assets - it's just a question of how quickly you want to tear off the band-aid.
            "We're playing in a building." -- Kawhi Leonard

            Comment


            • #7
              I don't think they can be accused of tanking because their teams, as constructed, had no promising future. The general managers made smart deals to turn expensive and/or older assets into cheaper, younger assets.
              Bingo

              Comment


              • #8
                S.R. wrote: View Post
                I guess I mean Boston and Philly have had a more extreme, short term clearing out of the previous roster, whereas Houston had a more gradual, patient accumulation of assets. For the Raptors it's the difference between trading half the roster this season (tanking?) and a more gradual transition that'll include trades as well as just allowing contracts to expire over the next couple of seasons.

                In both cases you want to end up with picks and prospects in place of your current assets - it's just a question of how quickly you want to tear off the band-aid.
                That SI mailbag nailed it though:

                If someone wants to accuse them of tanking, then he or she needs to explain what those teams should have done instead. I don't think they can be accused of tanking because their teams, as constructed, had no promising future. The general managers made smart deals to turn expensive and/or older assets into cheaper, younger assets. And now the coaches are trying to win every game, and under difficult circumstances they're doing a pretty good job of it.

                Is that tanking?

                Read More: http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/nba...#ixzz2l7QSjaqd
                Is taking steps back for the long term benefit of the franchise tanking if the ceiling is maybe a playoff appearance?

                Anyone pointing the finger about tanking this season should take a look in the mirror and ask themselves am I essentially tanking the 2014-15, 2015-16, 2016-17 season by not acting now?

                Comment


                • #9
                  Matt52 wrote: View Post
                  That SI mailbag nailed it though:



                  Is taking steps back for the long term benefit of the franchise tanking if the ceiling is maybe a playoff appearance?

                  Anyone pointing the finger about tanking this season should take a look in the mirror and ask themselves am I essentially tanking the 2014-15, 2015-16, 2016-17 season by not acting now?
                  At the same time Matt, while I see your point, you cannot just trade for the sake of trading. It won't help us now or in the future to just dump Rudy Gay for the first bag of crap that comes along. We all remember the Vince Carter trade. I don't think Masai is dumb enough to think this core has a championship in them, but he can't just go pick up 10 first rounders at the drop of a hat. A slow, gradual retool combined with 2 firsts in 2016 and probably more along the way could turn us into the next Indiana or the last few years Nuggets. It will take a few years no matter what.

                  In other words, an absolute blow it up right now tank is just bad asset management.
                  It's Klaw Season. Time to hunt.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Matt52 wrote: View Post
                    That SI mailbag nailed it though:



                    Is taking steps back for the long term benefit of the franchise tanking if the ceiling is maybe a playoff appearance?

                    Anyone pointing the finger about tanking this season should take a look in the mirror and ask themselves am I essentially tanking the 2014-15, 2015-16, 2016-17 season by not acting now?
                    Since you both have awesome Tank avatars, I'm assuming you're both on board for the overhaul.

                    One thing I have never heard from the anti-tankers is a set plan to improve other than "wait and see". No specific moves to improve the team, no trade targets, financials or anything other than "wait and see" - which isn't really a plan.
                    Heir, Prince of Cambridge

                    If you see KeonClark in the wasteland, please share your food and water with him.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      More gold

                      The dumbest thing that the 76ers, Suns and Celtics could have done last summer would have been to throw money at their problems -- to try to win now with rosters that were incapable of meeting that challenge. The 76ers wasted years following that shortsighted approach, while the Knicks and Nets are trying to follow it now; we'll see how that plays out for them.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        KeonClark wrote: View Post
                        At the same time Matt, while I see your point, you cannot just trade for the sake of trading. It won't help us now or in the future to just dump Rudy Gay for the first bag of crap that comes along. We all remember the Vince Carter trade. I don't think Masai is dumb enough to think this core has a championship in them, but he can't just go pick up 10 first rounders at the drop of a hat. A slow, gradual retool combined with 2 firsts in 2016 and probably more along the way could turn us into the next Indiana or the last few years Nuggets. It will take a few years no matter what.

                        In other words, an absolute blow it up right now tank is just bad asset management.
                        Maybe not for the first bag of crap, but keeping Rudy on the team is bad for the team. Rudy Gay often makes the team play worse, or at least a worse kind of basketball, that's bad for the development of our young players. If a guy is clearly an obstacle to the goal of the franchise, which if I'm not mistaken, was decided to be GROWTH for this coming season...Well Rudy on the team is stalling or hurting the growth of all other players. Especially with a hapless coach who is inconsistent (to say the least) with accountability, and has no clue how to coach one side of the floor.

                        Don't forget you have to include the assets you already have, and if Rudy Gay's presence is damaging the development or value of every other asset you have, then as soon as you find a decent deal for him, you take it. It's bad asset management to let the presence of a flawed player, or coach for that matter, hinder what else you're able to do by affecting value/growth of other players.
                        Last edited by white men can't jump; Tue Nov 19, 2013, 03:03 PM.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          KeonClark wrote: View Post
                          At the same time Matt, while I see your point, you cannot just trade for the sake of trading. It won't help us now or in the future to just dump Rudy Gay for the first bag of crap that comes along. We all remember the Vince Carter trade. I don't think Masai is dumb enough to think this core has a championship in them, but he can't just go pick up 10 first rounders at the drop of a hat. A slow, gradual retool combined with 2 firsts in 2016 and probably more along the way could turn us into the next Indiana or the last few years Nuggets. It will take a few years no matter what.

                          In other words, an absolute blow it up right now tank is just bad asset management.
                          The only bag of crap for toronto would be a bad contract that is not expiring.

                          Picks - any and all - are assets.

                          Ridding toronto of gay/dd shotfest only helps Ross and jv.

                          There is a strong possibility that removing one of gay or dd actually makes this team better right now.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Matt52 wrote: View Post
                            The only bag of crap for toronto would be a bad contract that is not expiring.

                            Picks - any and all - are assets.

                            Ridding toronto of gay/dd shotfest only helps Ross and jv.

                            There is a strong possibility that removing one of gay or dd actually makes this team better right now.
                            This I agree with. How ironic that we spend all this time and effort getting rid of a much maligned chucker in Bargnani, but before we do that we get an even worse chucker with a worse contract.
                            It's Klaw Season. Time to hunt.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              May I then suggest that a more palatable term us "tankers" should use to satisfy our "anti-tanker" brothers (and sisters) on these forums should be "Asset Accumulation". This of course would necessitate a slight change to our avatars, no? Something like:


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