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For the anti-tankers....What else should we do? SI's mailbag on tanking

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  • #46
    psrs1 wrote: View Post
    Is never playing in a playoff game 'a little adversity'?
    Never? A little pessimistic regardless of which side of the fence you land on.

    Durant didn't play a playoff game until after his 3rd season, which was a first round loss in 6 after finishing 8th with 50 wins. That's the season he won his 1st scoring title too. The next year they won their division and reached the Conference Finals.
    The previous 2 years, the team won 20 and 23 games. That seemed to work out ok for OKC. So why couldn't that happen? We have JV, we have Ross, we have some plug-in vets (Amir, Fields, Hansbrough, Novak) if we keep them.

    Gaining playoff experience is only valuable if your team is on an upwards trajectory and you need your young stars to learn. Gay, Lowry, DD, these guys aren't that young. They aren't the future.
    Heir, Prince of Cambridge

    If you see KeonClark in the wasteland, please share your food and water with him.

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    • #47
      psrs1 wrote: View Post
      Bad management can lead to forced tanking due to limited options. Whether trying to make playoffs or trying to tank the net result has been to end up with a net tank at the end of the season. ....even in Bosh's last year you could argue he didn't try hard enough and signing Hedo Turkiglu was tantamount to tanking.
      Bold 1 - That is MU's current situation. He is forced to clean up BC's mess.

      Bold 2 - Players don't tank, Front Offices do. Bosh, VC, etc, that isn't tanking, that's something else entirely.

      Bold 3 - Turkoglu was considered one of the top free agent options in the NBA that year (not just top for the Raps)
      Heir, Prince of Cambridge

      If you see KeonClark in the wasteland, please share your food and water with him.

      Comment


      • #48
        Nosike wrote: View Post
        You're going to have to explain to me how we failed to tank in 2011-12. There were only 6 guys on that roster that still get consistent minutes in the NBA. Two of them (Bargs and Bayless) missed half the season, and Alan Anderson didn't play a whole lot for us back then.

        Ben Uzoh started our last 8 games of the season...

        Charlotte won 7 games. The next 7 worst teams were separated by 3 wins. We got unlucky...
        Good luck getting the tankers to see the other side of the debate. Many tankers (not all) are close minded in this regard. I do see the reasoning and rationale for trying to tank I just think it can be limited by too many factors that are completely out of your control. Teams that are managed properly will find those draft picks that will do well at nba level.

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        • #49
          psrs1 wrote: View Post
          Bad management can lead to forced tanking due to limited options. Whether trying to make playoffs or trying to tank the net result has been to end up with a net tank at the end of the season. ....even in Bosh's last year you could argue he didn't try hard enough and signing Hedo Turkiglu was tantamount to tanking.
          Are you now comparing a strategy of signing arguably the best available free agent, to a blow-it up rebuild strategy, as being equal "tanking" strategies simply because of the results???

          If so, then no wonder we can't build consensus on whether "tanking" is a good or bad thing, because the definition seems to be in a constant state of flux.

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          • #50
            psrs1 wrote: View Post
            Is never playing in a playoff game 'a little adversity'?
            If a guy has the mental makeup to want to improve, then he will, playoffs or not. If a guy is clearly unwanting and/or incapable of improving hs game, then he won't.

            I think Jonas falls into the former. Any situation will be good for his development at this early stage. Missing the playoffs will make him work just as hard as making them, maybe even more.

            I mean....did making the playoffs early help the development of guys like Jennings or Bargnani? Or did it just reinforce their bad habits and make them think they didn't have to work harder on their games ot achieve some level of success? Regardless of the reason, it clearly didn't help their development. They're 2 guys that might never have the kind of epiphany needed to raise their games, because they just don't have the personality for it.
            Last edited by white men can't jump; Fri Nov 22, 2013, 02:17 PM.

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            • #51
              psrs1 wrote: View Post
              Good luck getting the tankers to see the other side of the debate. Many tankers (not all) are close minded in this regard. I do see the reasoning and rationale for trying to tank I just think it can be limited by too many factors that are completely out of your control. Teams that are managed properly will find those draft picks that will do well at nba level.
              Yet all of the championship teams of the last 34 years minus 1 have featured a franchise player obtained through the lottery with most of the championships featuring a top 3 pick. No doubt you can find quality players any where in the draft but the reality is most of the elite talent is identified at the top.

              Listen, if I was content with cheering for a team like the Atlanta Hawks of the last 7 years, I'd be fine with moving forward with what the Raptors have and tweaking as necessary. But look at my signature: "Championships are what we live for, now lets go win them." Tim Leiweke.

              Leiweke has raised my expectations. It very well could be lip service but I'm taking it at face value. I want to see a team built to win championships. I'm willing to wait 4-5 years for that to happen. I'm willing to root and cheer for a team striving to reach that goal. I'll follow, live, and breath Raptors regardless but Timmy raised the bar. This team as constructed is not going to come near the expectations Leiweke has released from that can of worms.

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              • #52
                psrs1 wrote: View Post
                Good luck getting the tankers to see the other side of the debate. Many tankers (not all) are close minded in this regard. I do see the reasoning and rationale for trying to tank I just think it can be limited by too many factors that are completely out of your control. Teams that are managed properly will find those draft picks that will do well at nba level.
                are closed minded in what regard? That the disagree when the team tanked?

                I think its pretty clear that this team has not been tanking for 5 years. I disagree with some of my tanking brethren here and I do believe that 2011/12 was a tanking year. That team was going to be bad, we all knew it, and Colangelo didn't attempt to do anything about it. Inaction in anticaption of a bad result is not much different than taking action to create a bad result.

                The problem was there was no extension of that tanking, no addition moves to keep that tank rolling (such as doing something like trading Jose) and then no rebuilding to go with it. It was simply a tank in anticipation of a retooling.

                The problem was the core was flawed (particularily Bargnani and Demar) and Colangelo refused to touch that core going forward.

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                • #53
                  Matt52 wrote: View Post
                  Not unlucky - stupid.

                  They went 6-8 in April 2012 in classic Raptor fashion.

                  You don't remember all the culture change, pound the rock, and the winning now would carry over in to next season?
                  I'm curious about what you would've wanted them to do? The first 3 of those wins came against Washington (who were just as bad as us), Charlotte (worst in the league) and Philadelphia (fringe playoff team in the east.

                  The next win didn't come until later against Boston and by then the Raptors were starting:

                  Uzoh
                  Anderson
                  DD
                  Amir
                  Gray

                  That is horrible by all measures. But they still ended up beating the Hawks (didn't help that Joe Johnson shot 2-12, they had all their regulars except Horford) and Celtics (playing all their starters except Ray was injured) back to back I'm not sure if you wanted Casey to take DeRozan or Amir out back and put a bullet in them. You can't tell guys not to play. Bargnani and Calderon actually had nagging injuries so they were justified in benching them.

                  Then in the last game of the season in the tank-battle of the century we faced off.

                  Uzoh
                  Anderson
                  James Johnson
                  Ed Davis
                  Magloire

                  Against

                  Gaines
                  Brooks
                  Green
                  Stevenson
                  J. Williams

                  Only 2 guys on our bench (Forbes and Alabi). Nobody was expecting Uzoh to drop a triple double, AA to drop 20, Ed to go for 24-12, Forbes to drop 23 and Alabi to put up 11-19.

                  Yeah you can tank by making moves, the Raptors deliberately fielded an awful roster that season. But you can't just tell guys not to play or ask them to play poorly. I have no qualms whatsoever with the 2011-12 tank, and regardless we were still in position to get an elite talent (Drummond) and blew it.

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                  • #54
                    Matt52 wrote: View Post
                    Not unlucky - stupid.

                    They went 6-8 in April 2012 in classic Raptor fashion.

                    You don't remember all the culture change, pound the rock, and the winning now would carry over in to next season?
                    By the way, I am saying the Raptors did in fact tank 2011-12 they just FAILED at it. They had it going until the end of the season when they rattled off a 6-8 record in April - which included 2 wins against .600 teams (Boston and Atlanta).

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                    • #55
                      2011/12 was most definitely a tank year, anyone who says otherwise is just trying to force a narrative.

                      Just because we didn't end up getting a top 5 pick doesn't mean we didn't tank, the teams in lottery positions 2-8 were separated by 3 wins.

                      I'm pro-tank, but that could EASILY happen this year considering how many teams are tanking.

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                      • #56
                        Nosike wrote: View Post
                        I'm curious about what you would've wanted them to do? The first 3 of those wins came against Washington (who were just as bad as us), Charlotte (worst in the league) and Philadelphia (fringe playoff team in the east.

                        The next win didn't come until later against Boston and by then the Raptors were starting:

                        Uzoh
                        Anderson
                        DD
                        Amir
                        Gray

                        That is horrible by all measures. But they still ended up beating the Hawks (didn't help that Joe Johnson shot 2-12, they had all their regulars except Horford) and Celtics (playing all their starters except Ray was injured) back to back I'm not sure if you wanted Casey to take DeRozan or Amir out back and put a bullet in them. You can't tell guys not to play. Bargnani and Calderon actually had nagging injuries so they were justified in benching them.

                        Then in the last game of the season in the tank-battle of the century we faced off.

                        Uzoh
                        Anderson
                        James Johnson
                        Ed Davis
                        Magloire

                        Against

                        Gaines
                        Brooks
                        Green
                        Stevenson
                        J. Williams

                        Only 2 guys on our bench (Forbes and Alabi). Nobody was expecting Uzoh to drop a triple double, AA to drop 20, Ed to go for 24-12, Forbes to drop 23 and Alabi to put up 11-19.

                        Yeah you can tank by making moves, the Raptors deliberately fielded an awful roster that season. But you can't just tell guys not to play or ask them to play poorly. I have no qualms whatsoever with the 2011-12 tank, and regardless we were still in position to get an elite talent (Drummond) and blew it.
                        Lose to .600 teams?

                        That would have solved the problem and got them a top 6 pick at minimum - which ironically would have netted you a top 6 pick which ironically is exactly what I want in this years draft.

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                        • #57
                          Matt52 wrote: View Post
                          By the way, I am saying the Raptors did in fact tank 2011-12 they just FAILED at it. They had it going until the end of the season when they rattled off a 6-8 record in April - which included 2 wins against .600 teams (Boston and Atlanta).
                          They didn't fail at anything. They tanked and got unlucky winning games against good teams and fellow tanking squads late in the season. You can't actually THROW a basketball game, you can put a bad team on the floor, that's it. You can't tell force guys to sit out (what player is gonna agree to sit out 14 games if they're not hurt? Newsflash, these guys like playing basketball). The Raptors used the same crap roster that had only won 25% of its prior games, and got unlucky, period.

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                          • #58
                            Matt52 wrote: View Post
                            Lose to .600 teams?

                            That would have solved the problem and got them a top 6 pick at minimum - which ironically would have netted you a top 6 pick which ironically is exactly what I want in this years draft.
                            HOW? You can't ask players or coaches to lose on purpose...

                            Comment


                            • #59
                              Nosike wrote: View Post
                              2011/12 was most definitely a tank year, anyone who says otherwise is just trying to force a narrative.

                              Just because we didn't end up getting a top 5 pick doesn't mean we didn't tank, the teams in lottery positions 2-8 were separated by 3 wins.

                              I'm pro-tank, but that could EASILY happen this year considering how many teams are tanking.
                              Didn't this all start in response to a post that claimed the Raptors had been tanking for the past 5 years? Why nit-pick whether 1 of those 5 years may have been tanking, if you're agreeing that the other 4 years weren't tanking?

                              Comment


                              • #60
                                Nosike wrote: View Post
                                HOW? You can't ask players or coaches to lose on purpose...
                                Phantom injuries. Happens every year.
                                "Stop eating your sushi."
                                "I do actually have a pair of Uggs."
                                "I've had three cups of green tea tonight. I'm wired. I'm absolutely wired."
                                - Jack Armstrong

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