For the anti-tankers....What else should we do? SI's mailbag on tanking

[Nilanka]

Is never playing in a playoff game 'a little adversity'?

We're never playing in a playoff game as it is.

[Masai Ujiri]

Didn't this all start in response to a post that claimed the Raptors had been tanking for the past 5 years? Why nit-pick whether 1 of those 5 years may have been tanking, if you're agreeing that the other 4 years weren't tanking?

Because some people don't seem to be willing to acknowledge that a tank may not result in a top 3 or top 5 pick regardless of whether management is good or not. Even if you tank, there are other teams tanking, then there's also a lottery game to play.

Some teams just end up getting screwed by the tank, and others get lucky, that's why there's risks to doing it (I'm a pro-tanker btw). Look at the 2007 NBA Draft. Memphis finishes dead last by a fair margin, then ends up falling to the 4th pick (Mike Conley Jr). OKC finished 5th last (what some here would call not tanking properly) and were only 4 wins worse than the 12th last team, they get to move up to #2 and select a generational talent in Durant. Hell they were actually lucky just to not move up to #1 or they may have taken Oden.

[Masai Ujiri]

Phantom injuries. Happens every year.

These "phantom injuries" typically happen to players that have actually had injuries during the season, teams just may or may not be keeping them out longer than necessary.

You can't ask a healthy young player to just sit out games. Was Colangelo supposed to tell DeMar to sit out the last month of the season (someone who's never been injured), when DD knows that he's playing for an extension the next year?

[Masai Ujiri]

I'm fully prepared for the reality that even if Ujiri does trade every single player of worth on this roster and full-blown tank, we could still end up outside of the coveted top 6 in this draft (no Wiggins, Parker, Exum, Randle, Gordon, Smart). I hope my fellow pro-tankers are ready for that as well and aren't going to crucify Ujiri if it happens.

Boston, Philly, Orlando, Phoenix, Utah and Sacramento are all tanking as well.

Others like Toronto and Cleveland may join them this season as well. It's not a one-horse race by any stretch.

[Craiger]

They didn't fail at anything. They tanked and got unlucky winning games against good teams and fellow tanking squads late in the season. You can't actually THROW a basketball game, you can put a bad team on the floor, that's it. You can't tell force guys to sit out (what player is gonna agree to sit out 14 games if they're not hurt? Newsflash, these guys like playing basketball). The Raptors used the same crap roster that had only won 25% of its prior games, and got unlucky, period.

I don't believe they either failed or got unlucky. In fact I think they got extremely lucky.

But what Colangelo did was screw it all up when he convinced himself Bargnani had finally 'gotten it', didn't bother to trade Bargnani, passed on Drummond and then proceed to go 'all in'.

[mcHAPPY]

They didn't fail at anything. They tanked and got unlucky winning games against good teams and fellow tanking squads late in the season. You can't actually THROW a basketball game, you can put a bad team on the floor, that's it. You can't tell force guys to sit out (what player is gonna agree to sit out 14 games if they're not hurt? Newsflash, these guys like playing basketball). The Raptors used the same crap roster that had only won 25% of its prior games, and got unlucky, period.

An idea: look at the schedule, look at who you're playing, look at the standings, and sit Amir, Calderon, and Bargnani April 1st for the year.


You don't remember all the culture change talk, creating a winning culture for the next season, learning how to win, yada yada yada?


When you're 18-35 through 53 games in a 66 game season, sit any and all veterans (Amir, Calderon, Bargnani).


Again, Raptors weren't unlucky they failed at tanking and tried to spin it to a fan base (or at least this fan) that this was the way to becoming a better team. BS. The way to becoming a better team is securing elite talent. The only way the Raptors are going to get elite talent right now is through the draft.

[Masai Ujiri]

I don't believe they either failed or got unlucky. In fact I think they got extremely lucky.

But what Colangelo did was screw it all up when he convinced himself Bargnani had finally 'gotten it', didn't bother to trade Bargnani, passed on Drummond and then proceed to go 'all in'.

Lol this is a fair point as well. Drummond might be the 2nd best talent from that draft and our position put him on a silver platter for us, BC just decided to blow it.

[Craiger]

I'm fully prepared for the reality that even if Ujiri does trade every single player of worth on this roster and full-blown tank, we could still end up outside of the coveted top 6 in this draft (no Wiggins, Parker, Exum, Randle, Gordon, Smart). I hope my fellow pro-tankers are ready for that as well and aren't going to crucify Ujiri if it happens.

Boston, Philly, Orlando, Phoenix, Utah and Sacramento are all tanking as well.

Others like Toronto and Cleveland may join them this season as well. It's not a one-horse race by any stretch.

I don't think anyone is in any way shape or form arguing not landing in the top 6 (or any position for that matter) is improbable.

That said, any individual should have all right to be upset with Masai if he does tank and doesn't land where we'd like, as so far he has put off that option already making it harder to achieve that preffered landing zone.

Delaying the tank was always going to make it harder to achieve the necessary losses

[CalgaryRapsFan]

Because some people don't seem to be willing to acknowledge that a tank may not result in a top 3 or top 5 pick regardless of whether management is good or not. Even if you tank, there are other teams tanking, then there's also a lottery game to play.

Some teams just end up getting screwed by the tank, and others get lucky, that's why there's risks to doing it (I'm a pro-tanker btw). Look at the 2007 NBA Draft. Memphis finishes dead last by a fair margin, then ends up falling to the 4th pick (Mike Conley Jr). OKC finished 5th last (what some here would call not tanking properly) and were only 4 wins worse than the 12th last team, they get to move up to #2 and select a generational talent in Durant. Hell they were actually lucky just to not move up to #1 or they may have taken Oden.

Exactly. Most pro-tankers aren't relying simply on a single draft pick to change the fortunes and future direction of this team, for reasons you pointed out. Most pro-tankers want to build a much better team, in terms of talent, fit, contracts, etc... which must begin with dismantling BC's 'frankenteam'. Those pro-tankers simply point out that the inevitable may as well be started ASAP, to also take advantage of a loaded draft, both by improving the Raptors own draft positioning and by attempting to acquire additional picks. The beauty of this approach is that the dismantling of the current core should also acquire young prospects and clear cap space, enabling MU to further [re]build this team properly in the offseason.

I'm not sure what relevance the team possibly tanking two seasons ago has on this discussion, other than illustrating the benefit of a GM fully committing to a single team-building strategy and sticking with it.

[Masai Ujiri]

An idea: look at the schedule, look at who you're playing, look at the standings, and sit Amir, Calderon, and Bargnani April 1st for the year.


You don't remember all the culture change talk, creating a winning culture for the next season, learning how to win, yada yada yada?


When you're 18-35 through 53 games in a 66 game season, sit any and all veterans (Amir, Calderon, Bargnani).


Again, Raptors weren't unlucky they failed at tanking and tried to spin it to a fan base (or at least this fan) that this was the way to becoming a better team. BS. The way to becoming a better team is securing elite talent. The only way the Raptors are going to get elite talent right now is through the draft.

Nope wrong, false.

I don't think you've read anything I've written, or if you have you just don't care to acknowledge it. That's fine.

You don't get it at all. The difference between us having the 8th best lottery odds and 4th was the win on opening night over the Cavs. That's not something you can pin on management.

[Masai Ujiri]

I don't think anyone is in any way shape or form arguing not landing in the top 6 (or any position for that matter) is improbable.

That said, any individual should have all right to be upset with Masai if he does tank and doesn't land where we'd like, as so far he has put off that option already making it harder to achieve that preffered landing zone.

Delaying the tank was always going to make it harder to achieve the necessary losses

I have another thread about this but I don't think Ujiri is deliberately delaying anything.

If you're one of the other 29 teams in the league why on earth would you trade for Rudy Gay?

[Craiger]

I have another thread about this but I don't think Ujiri is deliberately delaying anything.

If you're one of the other 29 teams in the league why on earth would you trade for Rudy Gay?

I wouldn't. But I'm also not Joe Dumars

Detroit apparently wanted to, and this is something I mentioned numerous times in the offseason, the relative value of that trade was not as bad as the nominal value of the players involved.

[Masai Ujiri]

I wouldn't. But I'm also not Joe Dumars

Detroit apparently wanted to, and this is something I mentioned numerous times in the offseason, the relative value of that trade was not as bad as the nominal value of the players involved.

We don't know if that deal was actually Masai's to make. Let's not forget that Detroit was targetting Gay at the same time as they were trying to ink Smith to a deal. They may have decided that Smith was for 14M a year was a better investment than Gay for 19M (which it is). It's possible Gay was only a backup option if discussions with Smoove broke down (remember Smith was signed AFTER that offer was discussed by ESPN, so it may have been taken off the table).

We have no idea what goes on behind the scenes in the NBA.

[mcHAPPY]

Nope wrong, false.

I don't think you've read anything I've written, or if you have you just don't care to acknowledge it. That's fine.

You don't get it at all. The difference between us having the 8th best lottery odds and 4th was the win on opening night over the Cavs. That's not something you can pin on management.

In a 66 game season where the Raptors won 23 games, you don't think:

6 wins in 14 games had a negative impact on the end result when they had 17 wins in the previous 52?

That is a .428 winning percentage versus a .327 WP.

Over a 66 game season that is 28 wins versus 22 wins.

That is the difference between a 11/12 pick versus a 5/6/7 pick in 2012.

That is why the failed at tanking: they didn't sit their veterans down the stretch. They sat Calderon but they waited too long.

[Craiger]

We don't know if that deal was actually Masai's to make. Let's not forget that Detroit was targetting Gay at the same time as they were trying to ink Smith to a deal. They may have decided that Smith was for 14M a year was a better investment than Gay for 19M (which it is). It's possible Gay was only a backup option if discussions with Smoove broke down (remember Smith was signed AFTER that offer was discussed by ESPN, so it may have been taken off the table).

We have no idea what goes on behind the scenes in the NBA.

That reasoning works both ways. If we have no idea what goes on behind the scenes in the NBA, there is no reason for us to believe that the 29 other teams wouldn't or haven't been wanting Gay either. Or that the Smoove deal only happened because Masai rejected the Gay offer.