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For the anti-tankers....What else should we do? SI's mailbag on tanking

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  • #31
    blackjitsu wrote: View Post
    1. I'm actually assuming the opposite. That's why I highly doubt Masai tanks. He's not going to move players for the sake of losing.

    2. The pro-tank side has been varied -- I'm speaking to a certain thread of thought that the Raps should just blindly get bad, moves like the rumored Detroit trade where the Raps got their expiring bad players for Rudy Gay for instance.

    This is going to potentially be a special draft-- I acknowledge that-- but how many of those kids will be able to develop to their full potential on a poorly constructed team? Maybe three/four guys? So, how bad do the Raps need to be to guarantee getting those guys? Is it possible to even get that bad without poisoning the young guys on the roster they may want to keep? If not, it's better to win as many games as possible -- create an environment where players can develop, and scout properly.

    Yes, that may mean years of mediocrity. There will be moments when people are going to hate Masai. Like I said, its going to be a marathon, not a sprint.
    It sounds like you think that simply being on a losing team is "poisoning" a young player. The flip side of the argument, is that it's a learning experience.

    The truly elite players, get by just fine despite a little adversity to start their pro careers.

    Comment


    • #32
      blackjitsu wrote: View Post
      1. I'm actually assuming the opposite. That's why I highly doubt Masai tanks. He's not going to move players for the sake of losing.

      2. The pro-tank side has been varied -- I'm speaking to a certain thread of thought that the Raps should just blindly get bad, moves like the rumored Detroit trade where the Raps got their expiring bad players for Rudy Gay for instance.

      This is going to potentially be a special draft-- I acknowledge that-- but how many of those kids will be able to develop to their full potential on a poorly constructed team? Maybe three/four guys? So, how bad do the Raps need to be to guarantee getting those guys? Is it possible to even get that bad without poisoning the young guys on the roster they may want to keep? If not, it's better to win as many games as possible -- create an environment where players can develop, and scout properly.

      Yes, that may mean years of mediocrity. There will be moments when people are going to hate Masai. Like I said, its going to be a marathon, not a sprint.
      Only development we are seeing is Gay and DD racing to shoot as often as possible.

      A 2014 top 8 pick, paired with a young wing (Ross), a young big (JV) and a host of veteran pieces (Fields, Amir, Hans, maybe even Demar) is a significantly better team than what we have today. Disgruntled players can get bought out or shipped out, there are always good mentor vets willing to take a leadership role.
      Heir, Prince of Cambridge

      If you see KeonClark in the wasteland, please share your food and water with him.

      Comment


      • #33
        blackjitsu wrote: View Post

        This is going to potentially be a special draft-- I acknowledge that-- but how many of those kids will be able to develop to their full potential on a poorly constructed team? Maybe three/four guys? So, how bad do the Raps need to be to guarantee getting those guys? Is it possible to even get that bad without poisoning the young guys on the roster they may want to keep? If not, it's better to win as many games as possible -- create an environment where players can develop, and scout properly.

        Yes, that may mean years of mediocrity. There will be moments when people are going to hate Masai. Like I said, its going to be a marathon, not a sprint.
        Was Lebron able to develop on a team that went 17-65 the year before they got him? Melo and the 17-65 Nuggets? What about Dwight Howard on a Magic team that went 22-60 the year prior? Did the Sonics ruin Kevin Durant by going 19-63 during his rookie year?

        The argument doesn't make any sense: high draft picks go to teams with bad records.

        Comment


        • #34
          blackjitsu wrote: View Post
          1. I'm actually assuming the opposite. That's why I highly doubt Masai tanks. He's not going to move players for the sake of losing.

          2. The pro-tank side has been varied -- I'm speaking to a certain thread of thought that the Raps should just blindly get bad, moves like the rumored Detroit trade where the Raps got their expiring bad players for Rudy Gay for instance.

          This is going to potentially be a special draft-- I acknowledge that-- but how many of those kids will be able to develop to their full potential on a poorly constructed team? Maybe three/four guys? So, how bad do the Raps need to be to guarantee getting those guys? Is it possible to even get that bad without poisoning the young guys on the roster they may want to keep? If not, it's better to win as many games as possible -- create an environment where players can develop, and scout properly.

          Yes, that may mean years of mediocrity. There will be moments when people are going to hate Masai. Like I said, its going to be a marathon, not a sprint.
          I find it strange that you call it 'blindly get bad', while then proceed to make all sorts of unfalsifiable assumptions about potential future developments.

          I'd point out that there is nothing 'blind' about what most of the pro-tankers want. Its rather consistent with the exception of a random few. There is a systematic reasoning based on historical and statistical evidence to support why pro-tankers feel its the best route.

          Yes, that may mean years of mediocrity
          Years of mediocrity isn't the danger here. The danger is never being able to escape that mediocrity, except by doing this very thing anyways (ie. blowing it up) at some point in the future anyways.

          Comment


          • #35
            Craiger wrote: View Post
            Years of mediocrity isn't the danger here. The danger is never being able to escape that mediocrity...
            Bingo

            Comment


            • #36
              Matt52 wrote: View Post
              That SI mailbag nailed it though:



              Is taking steps back for the long term benefit of the franchise tanking if the ceiling is maybe a playoff appearance?

              Anyone pointing the finger about tanking this season should take a look in the mirror and ask themselves am I essentially tanking the 2014-15, 2015-16, 2016-17 season by not acting now?
              I guess the last 5 years of failed tanking don't count? So let's accelerate tanking to get draft pick that may or may not pan out?

              Comment


              • #37
                psrs1 wrote: View Post
                I guess the last 5 years of failed tanking don't count? So let's accelerate tanking to get draft pick that may or may not pan out?
                "Failed tanking"? "Accelerated tanking"? What do these terms even mean?

                The bottom line is that despite all the losing we've endured, we haven't obtained a franchise player yet. This team's fortunes won't change until we do.

                Comment


                • #38
                  blackjitsu wrote: View Post
                  There are 2 reasons why I'm anti-tanking:

                  1. The idea that moving an asset at their lowest value, for anything is a good thing. It's not. Obviously the team needs quality young assets. But moving quality players for unwanted players (vets on expiring contracts like Camby -- thank god he never showed up) is a bad thing and leads to my second point.

                  2. What sort of environment do you want young assets to enter in to? Do you want T Ross, Val, a new draft pick, etc., playing alongside a miserable vet who doesn't want to play in Toronto? It's just as easy to be on a treadmill of being bad as there is to be on a treadmill of mediocrity. Create an environment of losing and players will get used to losing. SVG talks about how young players develop better on better teams...

                  Also, with the way the East is right now who do the Raps move to get worse? It's already been explained that moving Rudy probably makes the team better (at least offensively). The Raps will not get draft picks for a deal moving Lowry -- and with so many East teams stuck in the mud, there's no guarantee that even moving Lowry makes the team bad enough to guarantee a coveted top 5 draft pick (which is why they should need a draft pick to make the move).

                  The reality is that BC screwed the Raps. For the next couple seasons this is essentially the team. I trust Masai to find the future point guard, and a young starting SF. But it's going to be a marathon, not a sprint. The time to properly dive was when Bosh left, but BC was completely hard-headed and had fantasies of Andrea being a first option when, at best, he's a third.

                  To all the pro-tankers I'm sorry. I guess we all will have to get some chamomile tea, maybe light some incense sticks and chill. This going to take a few years to clean up in a way that leads to success.
                  Good post. Being anti tanking is by far in the minority here.

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    psrs1 wrote: View Post
                    I guess the last 5 years of failed tanking don't count? So let's accelerate tanking to get draft pick that may or may not pan out?
                    In the last 5 years, we've thrown money at vet free agents (Turkoglu, Jarrett Jack in '09, Kleiza (4 yr $20M) in '10, Landry Fields) while trading for players like Gay, Lowry, and Peja Stojakovic. We haven't tanked, we've sucked. There is a huge difference.
                    Heir, Prince of Cambridge

                    If you see KeonClark in the wasteland, please share your food and water with him.

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      psrs1 wrote: View Post
                      I guess the last 5 years of failed tanking don't count? So let's accelerate tanking to get draft pick that may or may not pan out?
                      No the sad part is the only tanking that happened was in 2010-11 and that led to JV (SUCCESS!).

                      2011-12 was an absolute failure of tanking (CULTURE CHANGE!).

                      2008-09, 2009-10, 2012-13 were all attempts at success (FAIL!).

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        psrs1 wrote: View Post
                        I guess the last 5 years of failed tanking don't count? So let's accelerate tanking to get draft pick that may or may not pan out?
                        The Raptors tanked the past 5 years? Why do I hear the theme from Twilight Zone playing?

                        First, this is only the 4th season without Bosh. The Raptors definitely were not tanking while Bosh was here, they were absolutely playing for the playoffs.

                        Second, one of the biggest complaints about BC was that he chose NOT to tank after Bosh left. He tried to win with a Bargnani/DeRozan core.

                        Third, even after making a smart, long-term draft pick (Valanciunas) knowing he'd be playing an entire season abroad, BC still didn't tank. What finally soured me on BC was him not doing a blatant outright tank job the season after drafting Valanciunas. That was the perfect opportunity and excuse for tanking, but BC was more interested in saving his job (aka "accelerated rebuild", aka "building", aka "organic growth").

                        The Raptors have not been tanking for the past 5 years. The Raptors have not tanked. The Raptors have gone for Band-Aid solutions and poorly conceived swing-for-the-fences type moves, without fully committing to either tanking or competing.

                        Don't confuse bad management with tanking (of course the term tanking is, as always, up for debate).

                        ---

                        Also, I'm not sure how many times it needs to be pointed out before the fact will stick, but pro-tanking is not simply all about a single 2014 draft pick. That is one piece of a much broader team-building strategy, that must begin with dismantling this current team (since the team is capped-out).

                        Furthermore, while talking about the draft, history has proven that building through the draft - especially via top-10 picks (regardless how you got that pick - being accidentally bad, being purposefully bad or trading for it) - is the most common, consistent method of building successful teams in the NBA.
                        Last edited by CalgaryRapsFan; Fri Nov 22, 2013, 01:51 PM.

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Matt52 wrote: View Post
                          No the sad part is the only tanking that happened was in 2010-11 and that led to JV (SUCCESS!).

                          2011-12 was an absolute failure of tanking (CULTURE CHANGE!).

                          2008-09, 2009-10, 2012-13 were all attempts at success (FAIL!).
                          You're going to have to explain to me how we failed to tank in 2011-12. There were only 6 guys on that roster that still get consistent minutes in the NBA. Two of them (Bargs and Bayless) missed half the season, and Alan Anderson didn't play a whole lot for us back then.

                          Ben Uzoh started our last 8 games of the season...

                          Charlotte won 7 games. The next 7 worst teams were separated by 3 wins. We got unlucky...

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            Nosike wrote: View Post
                            You're going to have to explain to me how we failed to tank in 2011-12. There were only 6 guys on that roster that still get consistent minutes in the NBA. Two of them (Bargs and Bayless) missed half the season, and Alan Anderson didn't play a whole lot for us back then.

                            Ben Uzoh started our last 8 games of the season...

                            Charlotte won 7 games. The next 7 worst teams were separated by 3 wins. We got unlucky...
                            Not unlucky - stupid.

                            They went 6-8 in April 2012 in classic Raptor fashion.

                            You don't remember all the culture change, pound the rock, and the winning now would carry over in to next season?

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              Nilanka wrote: View Post
                              It sounds like you think that simply being on a losing team is "poisoning" a young player. The flip side of the argument, is that it's a learning experience.

                              The truly elite players, get by just fine despite a little adversity to start their pro careers.
                              Is never playing in a playoff game 'a little adversity'?

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                CalgaryRapsFan wrote: View Post
                                The Raptors tanked the past 5 years? Why do I hear the theme from Twilight Zone playing?

                                First, this is only the 4th season without Bosh. The Raptors definitely were not tanking while Bosh was here, they were absolutely playing for the playoffs.

                                Second, one of the biggest complaints about BC was that he chose NOT to tank after Bosh left. He tried to win with a Bargnani/DeRozan core.

                                Third, even after making a smart, long-term draft pick (Valanciunas) knowing he'd be playing an entire season abroad, BC still didn't tank. What finally soured me on BC was him not doing a blatant outright tank job the season after drafting Valanciunas. That was the perfect opportunity and excuse for tanking, but BC was more interested in saving his job (aka "accelerated rebuild", aka "building", aka "organic growth").

                                The Raptors have not been tanking for the past 5 years. The Raptors have not tanked. The Raptors have gone for Band-Aid solutions and poorly conceived swing-for-the-fences type moves, without fully committing to either tanking or competing.

                                Don't confuse bad management with tanking (of course the term tanking is, as always, up for debate).
                                Bad management can lead to forced tanking due to limited options. Whether trying to make playoffs or trying to tank the net result has been to end up with a net tank at the end of the season. ....even in Bosh's last year you could argue he didn't try hard enough and signing Hedo Turkiglu was tantamount to tanking.

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