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Game #17: Toronto Raptors 103 - Golden State Warriors 112

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  • Matt52 wrote: View Post
    Bashing DeRozan and expressing concerns as a fan about the holes in his game are different things.

    The fact DD is the best player on the roster is irrelevant. The team sucks as constructed. DeRozan is a big part of the construction.

    Who is taunting? I think you have a cognitive distortion. Go back and check the threads after 'wins' over Memphis, Utah, Philly, and Milwaukee. What is taunting about he had zero rebounds the entire game? HE HAD NO REBOUNDS! Criticizing a 5th year guard with as many holes in his game and a lack of consistency such as DeRozan is not taunting; it is being fed up with mediocrity.... hell no. It isn't even mediocrity: it is being a bottom 3 team over the history of the team. This team and franchise is an absolute joke.

    As I've said all along as the Raptors win and lose, people post based on most recent history. All the people wanting to win now and worry about the future later will be back full of bravado as soon as the Raptors beat whoever, whenever. It won't change the fact this team sucks and is a laughingstock... 13 of its 18 year existence.
    blah blah blah, rinse and repeat.

    "The people who have zipped up their pants and gone home.

    Don't worry though. Next good game by him or Raptors they'll all be back."

    Is not taunting you say? Just expressing the holes in DDs game you say? Me calling it taunting is me having a "cognitive distortion" you say? So that's the acceptable parameters in this yard, huh. Noted, boss.

    (PS. as far as "expressing concerns as a fan about the holes in his game" , tell you what, save it next time. You've ranted, and shouted, and preached these "expressions" hundreds of times and EVERYONE knows your opinions a LONG TIME ago. Whatever thrill you get out of turning an opinion into a long term rant, I've no idea, but just saying we KNOW your feelings, dude!!!! Calming down a tad would be good for your health!)

    Comment


    • DeRozan does play defense and rebound, he just does them at an average level. Meanwhile, he is among the best at his position when it comes to scoring the basketball. Not every player can be a two-way guy.

      There are lots of teams that have been very successful with shooting guards who score the basketball, but are just average at most other aspects of the game. It's not an issue, your shooting guard doesn't have to be a 3+D guy for you to win titles. Ray Allen in 2008, Rip Hamilton in 2004, Manu Ginobili in 2007 (though quite a lot better playmaker than these other guys), Jason Terry in 2011.

      The key is to just bring in someone that's better than DeRozan, because he clearly isn't a franchise superstar. But he sure as hell can be a great complementary scorer like those guys listed above.

      Comment


      • Chr1s1anL wrote: View Post
        For the whole team. Why is everybody putting it on DD? It's kind of hard to go back for rebounds when your running out to contest Klay Thompson.


        Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

        job well done!
        really? -_-

        Klay was 6 for 12 50% from three last night

        Comment


        • ^ so why are you so attached to him when us 'tankers' want to trade him when his value is at its highest?

          Comment


          • Trade him next year, let him get extra good stats from being the # 1 option for a while (without rudy and lowry), and trade him with 3 years left on his contract next december!

            I think its the best way to get the most value for him.
            The Baltic Beast is unstoppable!

            Comment


            • Nosike wrote: View Post
              DeRozan does play defense and rebound, he just does them at an average level. Meanwhile, he is among the best at his position when it comes to scoring the basketball. Not every player can be a two-way guy.

              There are lots of teams that have been very successful with shooting guards who score the basketball, but are just average at most other aspects of the game. It's not an issue, your shooting guard doesn't have to be a 3+D guy for you to win titles. Ray Allen in 2008, Rip Hamilton in 2004, Manu Ginobili in 2007 (though quite a lot better playmaker than these other guys), Jason Terry in 2011.

              The key is to just bring in someone that's better than DeRozan, because he clearly isn't a franchise superstar. But he sure as hell can be a great complementary scorer like those guys listed above.
              I actually was arguing the exact same thing as you said in the last paragraph. I think part of the reason there's such a negative analysis of DeRozan going on is because, as p00ka pointed out earlier in this thread, DeRozan is the Raps' best player. Therefore, he gets compared to other teams' best players, rightly or wrongly (and like Bosh and Bargnani before him, he should never have been forced into this predicament). You could then say that the team needs to be retooled so that DeRozan becomes the #2 or #3 option, but this team is capped out with few trade assets (for a retooling). It's a terrible situation for DeRozan and the team, which is exactly why so many people have jumped on the tank bandwagon as the only viable long-term solution; this team needs to be blown up. I think DeRozan has essentially become collateral damage.

              Comment


              • ball4life wrote: View Post
                job well done!
                really? -_-

                Klay was 6 for 12 50% from three last night
                If that's the case than their aren't any rebounds to get than? DeRozan had him shutdown for 3 quarters


                Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
                @Chr1st1anL

                Comment


                • The truth is Demar is our best player. Its not cool to put the blame on him as the reason we've been historically bad.

                  We need to look at all our players. 9.5 million for Demar is a bargain...You don't just trade those. Rudy and Kyle should be able to bring back some assets. I wouldn't mind seeing more JV, Ross and Demar. We would likely end up getting a low to mid lottery pick.

                  I'm fine with re-tooling if our best player stays. Demar can be the #2 option and has been #1 before Rudy came.

                  Comment


                  • special1 wrote: View Post
                    The truth is Demar is our best player. Its not cool to put the blame on him as the reason we've been historically bad.

                    We need to look at all our players. 9.5 million for Demar is a bargain...You don't just trade those. Rudy and Kyle should be able to bring back some assets. I wouldn't mind seeing more JV, Ross and Demar. We would likely end up getting a low to mid lottery pick.

                    I'm fine with re-tooling if our best player stays. Demar can be the #2 option and has been #1 before Rudy came.
                    *mid to high lottery pick? Lol

                    Comment


                    • p00ka wrote: View Post
                      blah blah blah, rinse and repeat.

                      "The people who have zipped up their pants and gone home.

                      Don't worry though. Next good game by him or Raptors they'll all be back."

                      Is not taunting you say? Just expressing the holes in DDs game you say? Me calling it taunting is me having a "cognitive distortion" you say? So that's the acceptable parameters in this yard, huh. Noted, boss.

                      (PS. as far as "expressing concerns as a fan about the holes in his game" , tell you what, save it next time. You've ranted, and shouted, and preached these "expressions" hundreds of times and EVERYONE knows your opinions a LONG TIME ago. Whatever thrill you get out of turning an opinion into a long term rant, I've no idea, but just saying we KNOW your feelings, dude!!!! Calming down a tad would be good for your health!)
                      You don't recall the swinging dick comments when everything was rolling and all peaches n cream?

                      You're a tad sensitive p00ka. When I said they'll be back next good game, I mean just that. Not a dig, a statement of fact.

                      As for dd I'll say what I want when I want within forum rules. So funny how because you don't like the opinion you go on the literal personal attacks for ages while the opposite views get 'liked'

                      Here is a suggestion: put me on your ignore list and be proactive about not wanting to read my views versus whining. Just a suggestion.

                      Comment


                      • Nosike wrote: View Post
                        DeRozan does play defense and rebound, he just does them at an average level. Meanwhile, he is among the best at his position when it comes to scoring the basketball. Not every player can be a two-way guy.

                        There are lots of teams that have been very successful with shooting guards who score the basketball, but are just average at most other aspects of the game. It's not an issue, your shooting guard doesn't have to be a 3+D guy for you to win titles. Ray Allen in 2008, Rip Hamilton in 2004, Manu Ginobili in 2007 (though quite a lot better playmaker than these other guys), Jason Terry in 2011.
                        The following question isn't directly directed at Nosike, but to all....

                        Not every player can be two-way, but what is Demar's excuse?

                        He has all the tools, all the talent but only enough will-power to working on jump shooting. Why isn't he a better rebounder? He has the size, explosiveness, athleticism, and ample opportunity, but for whatever reason, he is only the 29th best guard at rebounding this year. Why isn't he a better defender? He has the size, the lateral quickness, athleticism and a Defensive head coach for 3 years yet is below the team in DRtg (Team 104.7 - Demar 107). I'll let assists and play-making slide because they are more difficult and complex skills to develop, but rebounding and defence, for a player with Demar's talent, is completely down to will power.

                        The idea that he is a scorer, it's not his responsibility to rebound is completely ridiculous. He's a basketball player. Rebounding is a basketball play. It's part of his mandate as soon as he steps onto the court.

                        To Nosike:
                        The players you mention though are elite at one thing or good at multiple things. Ray Allen - 3PT shooting elite. Rip - versatile player who contributed in multiple ways and was on an unique team. Manu - scores, defends, play maker. Terry - very good shooter but also can make plays. He was a defacto PG for years.

                        Demar is still a one trick pony. He is more athletic than all of those guys yet by their 5th season, Demar has the highest career DRtg (a bad thing), Rebound % less than Allen or Manu (same as Rip), tied with Rip as the only ones below 1 SPG (0.8) and the only one with a DWS of less than 5 (4.3 - next lowest is 7.5).

                        Demar needs to step up at the other end of the court.
                        Heir, Prince of Cambridge

                        If you see KeonClark in the wasteland, please share your food and water with him.

                        Comment


                        • It IS his responsibility to rebound, but you guys need to stop berating him for not doing everything at a top-tier level. Yes he's only average at rebounding and on the defensive end. That doesn't mean he can't be an integral part of this team going forward.

                          The other part you mentioned is just plain biased. You said Rip "contributed in multiple ways". The only way he really contributed was by scoring the basketball, which is what DeRozan does primarily as well. Sure he could SCORE in many different ways, but so can DeRozan, and I'd actually argue that DeRozan is more versatile as a scorer because of his post game and superior athleticism. You have no tangible argument here.

                          Yeah DeRozan has the highest career dRTG because he's spent the bulk of his career on shitty defensive teams, wheras:

                          Ray Allen: His dRTG through his first 11 seasons was never lower than 106, and was an average of 110. It only dipped below 106 after he joined the Celtics, who were one of the all-time best defensive teams.

                          Rip Hamilton: dRTG was only ever good with all-time great defensive Pistons teams. Outside of those 5 years of the Pistons being elite. Prior to those his average dRTG was 111 and afterwards (before joining the Thibodeau Bulls) it was 114.

                          Manu Ginobili: Has basically spent his entire career on elite defensive teams hence the great career dRTG. Part of the reason why he doesn't start is because he isn't a particularly good defender.

                          Jason Terry: Dallas was basically routinely a top 10 defensive team, yet his career dRTG of 108 is only a little better than DeMar's (who has played on two 30th ranked defensive teams and another ranked in the bottom 10, so essentially 70-75% of his career spent on trashy defensive teams).

                          Comment


                          • DeMar does need to improve on the defensive end, but his current defensive play is passable and doesn't prevent him from contributing to a contender.

                            People would likely have no complaints about his defense if we had an elite system on that end of the floor.

                            Comment


                            • Nosike wrote: View Post
                              It IS his responsibility to rebound, but you guys need to stop berating him for not doing everything at a top-tier level. Yes he's only average at rebounding and on the defensive end. That doesn't mean he can't be an integral part of this team going forward.

                              The other part you mentioned is just plain biased. You said Rip "contributed in multiple ways". The only way he really contributed was by scoring the basketball, which is what DeRozan does primarily as well. Sure he could SCORE in many different ways, but so can DeRozan, and I'd actually argue that DeRozan is more versatile as a scorer because of his post game and superior athleticism. You have no tangible argument here.

                              Yeah DeRozan has the highest career dRTG because he's spent the bulk of his career on shitty defensive teams, wheras:

                              Ray Allen: His dRTG through his first 11 seasons was never lower than 106, and was an average of 110. It only dipped below 106 after he joined the Celtics, who were one of the all-time best defensive teams.

                              Rip Hamilton: dRTG was only ever good with all-time great defensive Pistons teams. Outside of those 5 years of the Pistons being elite. Prior to those his average dRTG was 111 and afterwards (before joining the Thibodeau Bulls) it was 114.

                              Manu Ginobili: Has basically spent his entire career on elite defensive teams hence the great career dRTG. Part of the reason why he doesn't start is because he isn't a particularly good defender.

                              Jason Terry: Dallas was basically routinely a top 10 defensive team, yet his career dRTG of 108 is only a little better than DeMar's (who has played on two 30th ranked defensive teams and another ranked in the bottom 10, so essentially 70-75% of his career spent on trashy defensive teams).
                              The stats I used were for each players first 5 years only. So regardless of Allen on the Celtics, Rip's full Pistons career (first 3 with Washington) or Terry's career in Dallas (first 5 years were all Atlanta), the numbers stand and your points irrelevant.

                              Ginobili's not a good defender? He averaged 1.58 steals per game over his first 5 seasons. His DRtg was better than the Spurs average in 4 of his first 5 seasons and on par the other season. So saying his stats are solely because of the team is BS.

                              Again, what's Demar's excuse? He's below average in rebounding and defence and there is no excuse.
                              Heir, Prince of Cambridge

                              If you see KeonClark in the wasteland, please share your food and water with him.

                              Comment


                              • Wolstat's blog on this game. Good read and touches on a lot of the discussions points that have been brought up recently.

                                http://blogs.canoe.ca/courtside/bask...i-ujiris-hand/
                                Heir, Prince of Cambridge

                                If you see KeonClark in the wasteland, please share your food and water with him.

                                Comment

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