Game #17: Toronto Raptors 103 - Golden State Warriors 112

[Axel]

I guess what p00ka's saying is that no two players' situations are exactly alike. Therefore comparing stats of two players never provides an accurate picture.

Although I agree with the point p00ka's making, stats still provide the most accurate assessment that we know of (since there is no possible way to account for every single variable that could affect a player's performance).

But without providing any basis for Demar's context (how does his role limit him from rebounding?) then it's not really adding anything except trying to blanket dismiss all stats as irrelevant.

[stooley]

I guess what p00ka's saying is that no two players' situations are exactly alike. Therefore comparing stats of two players never provides an accurate picture.

Although I agree with the point p00ka's making, stats still provide the most accurate assessment that we know of (since there is no possible way to account for every single variable that could affect a player's performance).

I would add that when being compared to only SGs, the most important variables are probably pretty similar in the majority of cases. There may be outliers created by certain coaching styles but we can catch these.

[Nilanka]

DeMar is playing for the Raptors, given roles within their system, among his teammates. What are the other players circumstances? Context. Is that significant context or does bean counting minutes over-ride it all?

What's with the constant bean-counting reference? I've never seen it used to describe basketball so much.

What role, system, etc limitations does Demar have that limit him in rebounding? Our non-existent fast break? Our elite rebounders at every other position?

I guess what p00ka's saying is that no two players' situations are exactly alike. Therefore comparing stats of two players never provides an accurate picture.

Although I agree with the point p00ka's making, stats still provide the most accurate assessment that we know of (since there is no possible way to account for every single variable that could affect a player's performance).

[Axel]

Last year's:
http://www.hoopdata.com/advancedstat...&gp=40&mins=25

This year's:
http://www.basketball-reference.com/...der_by=trb_pct

His TRR numbers from last year (wish they had this year, but alas) is 6.3 but the site says the league average is 6.6, so by definition, below average.

Too bad BR doesn't post "League average" numbers, but 40th isn't impressive.

[stooley]

Got a link for the TRR stuff?

The stats were fine until ESPN decided to filter out half the league.

Last year's:
http://www.hoopdata.com/advancedstat...&gp=40&mins=25

This year's:
http://www.basketball-reference.com/...der_by=trb_pct

[Axel]

DeMar is playing for the Raptors, given roles within their system, among his teammates. What are the other players circumstances? Context. Is that significant context or does bean counting minutes over-ride it all?

What's with the constant bean-counting reference? I've never seen it used to describe basketball so much.

What role, system, etc limitations does Demar have that limit him in rebounding? Our non-existent fast break? Our elite rebounders at every other position?

[p00ka]

DeMar is playing over 38 minutes per game. What are those other players playing? Context.

DeMar is playing for the Raptors, given roles within their system, among his teammates. What are the other players circumstances? Context. Is that significant context or does bean counting minutes over-ride it all?

[Axel]

So since the stats were so wildly misleading in this thread, I did a little research of my own.

Total rebounding rate seemed like the best way to accurately determine a player's impact on the boards taking the pace of play into account. Numbers can still be skewed by certain tactics, such as if a player is coached to break away or crash the boards every possession, but I digress.

Last year, among SGs who averaged more than 25 minutes per game (more than half of each game) and played in over 40 games, Demar ranked 19th out of 33 in total rebounding rate, directly ahead of Hayward, Afflalo and Klay Thompson. He is ranked behind players like Ray Allen and James Harden, players people don't associate with a dominating rebounding presence.

This year, among all guards (since BR is picky) who average more than 25 minutes per game, Demar's TRR is ranked 40th out of 68. He is not in terrible company here.

Over the past two years, Demar has not shown improvement in his rebounding rate and is slightly below league average for a starting player at his position.

Hopefully, given his athletic gifts and willingness to improve certain aspects of his game, Demar will take a step forward on this front. If he does not, he is not a liability on the boards but also isn't a strength there. If Demar stops improving today, I predict a Kevin Martinesque career for him.

Got a link for the TRR stuff?

The stats were fine until ESPN decided to filter out half the league.

[stooley]

So since the stats were so wildly misleading in this thread, I did a little research of my own.

Total rebounding rate seemed like the best way to accurately determine a player's impact on the boards taking the pace of play into account. Numbers can still be skewed by certain tactics, such as if a player is coached to break away or crash the boards every possession, but I digress.

Last year, among SGs who averaged more than 25 minutes per game (more than half of each game) and played in over 40 games, Demar ranked 19th out of 33 in total rebounding rate, directly ahead of Hayward, Afflalo and Klay Thompson. He is ranked behind players like Ray Allen and James Harden, players people don't associate with a dominating rebounding presence.

This year, among all guards (since BR is picky) who average more than 25 minutes per game, Demar's TRR is ranked 40th out of 68. He is not in terrible company here.

Over the past two years, Demar has not shown improvement in his rebounding rate and is slightly below league average for a starting player at his position.

Hopefully, given his athletic gifts and willingness to improve certain aspects of his game, Demar will take a step forward on this front. If he does not, he is not a liability on the boards but also isn't a strength there. If Demar stops improving today, I predict a Kevin Martinesque career for him.

[p00ka]

You don't recall the swinging dick comments when everything was rolling and all peaches n cream?

You're a tad sensitive p00ka. When I said they'll be back next good game, I mean just that. Not a dig, a statement of fact.

As for dd I'll say what I want when I want within forum rules. So funny how because you don't like the opinion you go on the literal personal attacks for ages while the opposite views get 'liked'

Here is a suggestion: put me on your ignore list and be proactive about not wanting to read my views versus whining. Just a suggestion.

1st bold: no, I don't recall, and that's not unusual. I usually don't keep tabs on peoples comments from previous conversations, but I do notice when someone rants the same stuff hundreds of times, whether significant to the topic of the thread or not.

2nd bold: Sensitive? That's precious coming from you, especially immediately following your previous expression of sensitivity toward what someone said in some other conversation.

3rd bold: "statement fact of fact"? Closer to delusion when someone starts spouting that their speculation/prediction is "fact". That aside, the other half of that post (forgotten now?) was what I found offensive and calling people out, over effing rebounds in 1 game (feeling sensitive maybe?). That part was "The people who have zipped up their pants and gone home.", to which I responded appropriately with "My pants aren't zipped. Eat it, petty little one.". Yeah petty, because your apparent focus on this game is about DDs lack of rebounding, one of the least consequential "facts" of the game. It was all about calling people out who tweaked your sensitivities some other time apparently.

4th bold: Of course you will, over and over and over. And I'll respond as i want, when I want, within the forum rules.

5th bold: Do you ever read your own posts? Dude, you get pretty damn personal yourself when you get your ego twisted out of joint. That aside, I think I can safely say that it would be pretty damn rare that I get personal over a simple opinion. I DO certainly get more aggressive over character/attitude issues, particularly when it's a constant thing.

6th bold: Go figure, hey. When I disagree with your opinion or attitude, I tend to "like" opposition to you. Go figure, but not sorry if you're feeling a little sensitive about me liking others' posts.

7th bold: I appreciate your thoughtfulness in just making suggestions, but I guess I just can't help myself. I've got this thing for people that follow the easiest path in the world of being a fan of a team: criticize EVERYTHING, all the time, and it's a no lose approach. If your right, you get to pound your chest about how right you were. If you're wrong, you get to say that you're happy you were wrong. But that's just my opinion. Don't get personal now.

[Axel]

Right.

Looking at Evans, he averages 4.5rpg - 0.7 more than DeMar - in 25.6MPG.

DeMar plays another full 12 minutes per game - another quarter of ball! - and average 0.7 less?!?!?!

How can anyone argue based solely on per game numbers is my point.

It is the same thing about scoring points. If you're going to look at the totals and say, "He is a great scorer because he gets 20ppg." That is bullsh!t - how many shots is he taking? Efficiency matters in scoring.


Not all numbers are created equal.

Completely agree. Just wanted to give you the stats so you were able to form an educated opinion. To me, Ricky Rubio at 4.5 RPG playing 32.8 MPG (so 5.8 minutes less) while playing with Kevin "I grab every rebound in the state" Love is the biggest kick in the nuts.

[Axel]

Lol actually your stats are the ones that are irrelevant, not mine.

I didn't realize steals = good defense. I suppose Monta Ellis is an elite defensive player then.

DeMar is below average in neither rebounding nor defence.

And with that you'll be joining Matt52 on ignore.

Thank God!! No more pointless arguments!

[mcHAPPY]

Of all the guards ahead of him currently, only 4 players (Tyreke Evans, Olapido, Thabo, Shumpert) are averaging less than 30 MPG and none less than 25MPG.

Right.

Looking at Evans, he averages 4.5rpg - 0.7 more than DeMar - in 25.6MPG.

DeMar plays another full 12 minutes per game - another quarter of ball! - and average 0.7 less?!?!?!

How can anyone argue based solely on per game numbers is my point.

It is the same thing about scoring points. If you're going to look at the totals and say, "He is a great scorer because he gets 20ppg." That is bullsh!t - how many shots is he taking? Efficiency matters in scoring.


Not all numbers are created equal.

[Masai Ujiri]

The stats I used were for each players first 5 years only. So regardless of Allen on the Celtics, Rip's full Pistons career (first 3 with Washington) or Terry's career in Dallas (first 5 years were all Atlanta), the numbers stand and your points irrelevant.

Ginobili's not a good defender? He averaged 1.58 steals per game over his first 5 seasons. His DRtg was better than the Spurs average in 4 of his first 5 seasons and on par the other season. So saying his stats are solely because of the team is BS.

Again, what's Demar's excuse? He's below average in rebounding and defence and there is no excuse.

Lol actually your stats are the ones that are irrelevant, not mine.

I didn't realize steals = good defense. I suppose Monta Ellis is an elite defensive player then.

DeMar is below average in neither rebounding nor defence.

And with that you'll be joining Matt52 on ignore.

[Axel]

DeMar is playing over 38 minutes per game. What are those other players playing? Context.

Of all the guards ahead of him currently, only 4 players (Tyreke Evans, Olapido, Thabo, Shumpert) are averaging less than 30 MPG and none less than 25MPG.