Raptors on the Rise?

[p00ka]

You're right I should ignore p00ka instead of engaging in these asinine debates over and over.

And nice bolds by the way! I never understood why people always said that

LOL, another one who can't handle opposition to his tunnel vision, and has to throw out an insult before running for cover. I wish I had better control, like Shrub, but there's reason why I fight asshole with asshole.

[stooley]

LOL, another one who can't handle opposition to his tunnel vision, and has to throw out an insult before running for cover. I wish I had better control, like Shrub, but there's reason why I fight asshole with asshole.

Many of these debates have been asinine, and they degenerate into the equivalent of shouting matches.

I've given you, and others, a floor to express your opinions in a different thread, and I am honestly curious to hear what you have to say.

I think the reason why we get so sidetracked is because of the number of people piping in and the jumping off point, which usually comes mid way through a thread and is often taken out of context.

[p00ka]

I agree then with you. Boeheim's comment does raise some question marks. It is not to be dismissed, but also not to be taken as gospel

Hell, I wouldn't take anybody's opinion as gospel, nor was a trying to say that. He can be as wrong as anybody else can be.

[Fully]

I have no interest in digging for others that I've seen, but as one example, post #125 of this thread:

" Cap space for us in 2014 is relatively meaningless." If that isn't downplaying, what is?

Well to be fair to that poster, you could have put the entirety of his point which was:

1. Cap space for us in 2014 is relatively meaningless. Who are we going to sign, exactly? We're not signing LeBron - he's only going to a team that's a serious contender because he wants rings, and "hey look we made the bottom half of the East" isn't going to cut it. Most of the big stars are either going to re-sign with their existing teams (Wade, Dirk, Duncan) or are RFAs so we'd have to overspend to even have a chance to get them, assuming we even want them (Gordon Hayward, Greg Monroe, Eric Bledsoe) or are guys we actively shouldn't want (Rudy, Z-Bo, Pau, ESPECIALLY Melo). Looking over the top free agents list in 2014 the only guys I can see us maybe being interested in and having a shot at signing are Luol Deng (who we'd have to massively overpay, making him likely not worth it) and Ed Davis (who we wouldn't - which means we don't need that much cap space).

The 2015 and 2016 free agent classes are much more important to us. Many bigger names who fit holes on our team (LMA, Durant, Rondo, etc.). More time for us to get respectable to those big names. More time for us to get real assets by taking on other teams' bad contracts in exchange for prospects or picks a la Utah grabbing $20M of Richard Jefferson and Andris Biedrins this year in order to get two of Golden State's draft picks, which was a great trade for Utah and which GS needed to do so they could sign Iggy. These don't even have to be tank trades necessarily, because SOMEBODY has to sit at the end of the bench and wave a fucking towel when Jonas does something awesome. It's not like bench spots 12-15 are there for anything except emergencies anyway.


I'm not sure if you didn't understand what he was trying to say or you just read the first sentence, saw that he put the words 'cap space' and 'useless' in the same statement, and had to rush to the reply section because you thought you had caught him backtracking on his stance.

But if you read his entire point, he's saying that he doesn't see the cap space that Ujiri acquired this year being used to sign key free agents on the open market. He is advocating that the Raptors instead use this cap space to facilitate deals with other financially hamstrung teams in an attempt to pick up some assets (prospects or picks) that will aid in the rebuild of this roster.

Which by the way, is what the rebuilding crowd has been saying should be done, since this whole argument started months ago.

At the very least, he's suggesting that the Raptors refrain from spending the cap space on the open market until the following summer, where there are more realistic options for the team, and the added benefit of giving your foundation one additional year to be formed. Obviously you'll have a better idea of what should be added once you have a better idea of what the rebuilt team will look like.

The word "useless" was the the wrong term obviously, but if you read the full context of what he's saying, it's obvious that he thinks the cap flexibility will be quite the opposite going forward.

[p00ka]

Many of these debates have been asinine, and they degenerate into the equivalent of shouting matches.

I've given you, and others, a floor to express your opinions in a different thread, and I am honestly curious to hear what you have to say.

I think the reason why we get so sidetracked is because of the number of people piping in and the jumping off point, which usually comes mid way through a thread and is often taken out of context.

I don't always succeed, put I try and keep feelings of other debates out of being a misguided influence on whet I see in the current one. I certainly don't always succeed, but those that struggle with the same thing should be able to at least empathize.

I'll have a look for this different thread.

Man, just about every thread here gets sidetracked, though according to some I'm at fault for all of them, lol.

[p00ka]

Well to be fair to that poster, you could have put the entirety of his point which was:

1. Cap space for us in 2014 is relatively meaningless. Who are we going to sign, exactly? We're not signing LeBron - he's only going to a team that's a serious contender because he wants rings, and "hey look we made the bottom half of the East" isn't going to cut it. Most of the big stars are either going to re-sign with their existing teams (Wade, Dirk, Duncan) or are RFAs so we'd have to overspend to even have a chance to get them, assuming we even want them (Gordon Hayward, Greg Monroe, Eric Bledsoe) or are guys we actively shouldn't want (Rudy, Z-Bo, Pau, ESPECIALLY Melo). Looking over the top free agents list in 2014 the only guys I can see us maybe being interested in and having a shot at signing are Luol Deng (who we'd have to massively overpay, making him likely not worth it) and Ed Davis (who we wouldn't - which means we don't need that much cap space).

The 2015 and 2016 free agent classes are much more important to us. Many bigger names who fit holes on our team (LMA, Durant, Rondo, etc.). More time for us to get respectable to those big names. More time for us to get real assets by taking on other teams' bad contracts in exchange for prospects or picks a la Utah grabbing $20M of Richard Jefferson and Andris Biedrins this year in order to get two of Golden State's draft picks, which was a great trade for Utah and which GS needed to do so they could sign Iggy. These don't even have to be tank trades necessarily, because SOMEBODY has to sit at the end of the bench and wave a fucking towel when Jonas does something awesome. It's not like bench spots 12-15 are there for anything except emergencies anyway.


I'm not sure if you didn't understand what he was trying to say or you just read the first sentence, saw that he put the words 'cap space' and 'useless' in the same statement, and had to rush to the reply section because you thought you had caught him backtracking on his stance.

But if you read his entire point, he's saying that he doesn't see the cap space that Ujiri acquired this year being used to sign key free agents on the open market. He is advocating that the Raptors instead use this cap space to facilitate deals with other financially hamstrung teams in an attempt to pick up some assets (prospects or picks) that will aid in the rebuild of this roster.

Which by the way, is what the rebuilding crowd has been saying should be done, since this whole argument started months ago.

At the very least, he's suggesting that the Raptors refrain from spending the cap space on the open market until the following summer, where there are more realistic options for the team, and the added benefit of giving your foundation one additional year to be formed. Obviously you'll have a better idea of what should be added once you have a better idea of what the rebuilt team will look like.

The word "useless" was the the wrong term obviously, but if you read the full context of what he's saying, it's obvious that he thinks the cap flexibility will be quite the opposite going forward.

My original comment about cap space suddenly being downplayed wasn't directed at only one post. I just don't have the time to dig up others that I was asked to. Just an observation, man. If you think that's wrong, so be it. It's not like I've never had poor judgement of what I see, so it's certainly possible I'm not seeing it clearly.

[S.R.]

Just take a look...

@ Lakers - W, 19 AST
vs Spurs - L, 23 AST
vs 76ers - W, 24 AST
@ Bulls - W, 26 AST <<< season best.

3-1 without Gay.

5-1 when more than 20 AST.

Ball moves from side to side, it's so fun to watch. I can't believe that one guy has changed everything.

Back to OP - the team is now much more watchable, and the starting 5 now has some legit internal growth potential (JV and TR). But even considering that, what's the ceiling, ultimately? Max out JV's and TR's growth, maintain the talent at PG after losing Lowry, and....is it a 2nd round team? This terrible EC is temporary, just like it was in 06/07. This core is early to mid-twenties. Five years down the road, what are they competing for? How do you get to the next level?

I'm not interested in more tank/anti-tank, but no matter how you feel about things "How do you get to the next level?" is still the question of the day, even if this "new" Raptors team develops well.

[magoon]

I have no interest in digging for others that I've seen, but as one example, post #125 of this thread:

" Cap space for us in 2014 is relatively meaningless." If that isn't downplaying, what is?

That wasn't downplaying the importance of cap space. That was saying "cap space for the purpose of signing free agents in 2014 is not important because free agency in 2014 is not going to be a game changer for this team and we should not treat it accordingly."

Cap space is always a good thing to have; it's an asset. But the entire point of trading upwards is you turn one asset into more assets. If we can turn Kyle Lowry's soon-to-come cap space into a bad player who doesn't give us cap space but gives us assets (e.g. taking Raymond Felton's $4m a year through 2016 but getting some assortment of Shump/Hardaway Jr./2018 first-rounder), we have a net increase in assets, and that's what you always want. If you aren't using cap space to sign free agents, you're using it to take other teams' trash to get concessions from them; that's what cap space is for when you're not signing free agents.

At a certain point we should prize cap space above picks - i.e. when we're looking to make a splash in the free agent market. But 2014 isn't the year we should be targeting to do that, because we're not going to be good enough to attract stars and the players who aren't stars will be too expensive to be worth getting.

[mcHAPPY]

That wasn't downplaying the importance of cap space. That was saying "cap space for the purpose of signing free agents in 2014 is not important because free agency in 2014 is not going to be a game changer for this team and we should not treat it accordingly."

Cap space is always a good thing to have; it's an asset. But the entire point of trading upwards is you turn one asset into more assets. If we can turn Kyle Lowry's soon-to-come cap space into a bad player who doesn't give us cap space but gives us assets (e.g. taking Raymond Felton's $4m a year through 2016 but getting some assortment of Shump/Hardaway Jr./2018 first-rounder), we have a net increase in assets, and that's what you always want. If you aren't using cap space to sign free agents, you're using it to take other teams' trash to get concessions from them; that's what cap space is for when you're not signing free agents.

At a certain point we should prize cap space above picks - i.e. when we're looking to make a splash in the free agent market. But 2014 isn't the year we should be targeting to do that, because we're not going to be good enough to attract stars and the players who aren't stars will be too expensive to be worth getting.

Aiming to sign a top free agent in 2014 is also begging for an outcome similar to the Bryan Colangelo Experience.

Asset Accumulation with an eye to developing young talent, using Bird Rights when the time comes, and putting a roster in place to attract a top tier free agent with the promise of winning.

**Kevin Durant in 2016!**

[S.R.]

**Kevin Durant in 2016!**

If this ever happened my head would explode.

It's also a good reminder that Ujiri's planning has to look a lot further down the road than just the 2014 draft, which is pretty much what we've limited our discussion to.

[Uncle_Si]

Back to OP - the team is now much more watchable, and the starting 5 now has some legit internal growth potential (JV and TR). But even considering that, what's the ceiling, ultimately? Max out JV's and TR's growth, maintain the talent at PG after losing Lowry, and....is it a 2nd round team? This terrible EC is temporary, just like it was in 06/07. This core is early to mid-twenties. Five years down the road, what are they competing for? How do you get to the next level?

I'm not interested in more tank/anti-tank, but no matter how you feel about things "How do you get to the next level?" is still the question of the day, even if this "new" Raptors team develops well.

I've been a pro tanker and I guess you could still say I am. But maybe I'm more accurately described as an asset collector. I'd like to see us somehow land a top 10 pick. If MU decides the tank is the way then cool, draft say trade? I'm leaning more towards that option. But I do know that we've never been a team free agents want to come to but we've also never been a winning program. Winning changes everything so however MU decides to win I'm cool with.

[ezz_bee]

Short term - cap space used to help acquire assets

Long term - cap space used to sign key free agents

I disagree with the bold. I think the only thing cap space is goo for is to help facilitate trades. More and more I think that FA is a no win zone for management.

ESPN's tank rank still have raptors at 4th despite the recent wins.

They're predicting more tanking moves.

Rudy Gay's absence hasn't had the tanking effect GM Masai Ujiri had hoped for. In fact, the Raptors are 3-1 since the trade. That's why Ujiri is out working hard to move more veterans like Kyle Lowry and DeMar DeRozan(!?!?!?!?!). Lowry should be pretty easy to move. DeRozan will be tougher.

GMs are even more interested in trying to pry away Jonas Valanciunas and Amir Johnson, I'm told. Valanciunas is virtually untouchable and it would take a pretty high draft pick to pry away Johnson, who is playing the best ball of his career right now (averaging 20 points and 9 rebounds in his past five games).

First time I've heard Demar's name mentioned in trade rumours. Anyone else heard anything involving Demar? In general I find stuff that comes from insider hardly ever provides any insight.

LOL, another one who can't handle opposition to his tunnel vision, and has to throw out an insult before running for cover. I wish I had better control, like Shrub, but there's reason why I fight asshole with asshole.

What opposition? I've never seen you give your own opinion on what you think the raptors should do. It seems like all your posts are just a criticism/deconstruction of other peoples idea/logic. How is critiquing somebody else's opinion but never providing your own opposition?

Don't get me wrong, there is certainly some value in it, but when that's all you offer maybe that has something to with the fact people stop engaging with you?

You never put forth any ideas of you own (at least none that I remember reading), so there's nothing from your end that others can critique/deconstruct. When you don't bring anything to the table, can you blame other people for no longer wanting to show up?

The only position I've ever seen you take on these forums is the position of contrarian. And like I said, there is some value in that by challenging someone to defend their position they are forced to think it through, and often can lead them to changing their perspective or opinion. Of course, when that's all you do, you come across as a one trick pony.

You obviously have a keen intellect, so why not state your position every once and awhile, I mean just for a change of pace?

[mcHAPPY]

If this ever happened my head would explode.

It's also a good reminder that Ujiri's planning has to look a lot further down the road than just the 2014 draft, which is pretty much what we've limited our discussion to.

The discussion frequently ends up looking at just 2014 but a lot of people, including myself, have shared their opinions and thoughts spanning the next few years. Obviously we know nothing and are merely shooting the sh!t on what we'd like to see.... but isn't that why we're here?

[S.R.]

The discussion frequently ends up looking at just 2014 but a lot of people, including myself, have shared their opinions and thoughts spanning the next few years. Obviously we know nothing and are merely shooting the sh!t on what we'd like to see.... but isn't that why we're here?

I'm here because I'm procrastinating. I should be working.

[ezz_bee]

I've been a pro tanker and I guess you could still say I am. But maybe I'm more accurately described as an asset collector. I'd like to see us somehow land a top 10 pick. If MU decides the tank is the way then cool, draft say trade? I'm leaning more towards that option. But I do know that we've never been a team free agents want to come to but we've also never been a winning program. Winning changes everything so however MU decides to win I'm cool with.

As to your bold I'm pretty sure that's what all us pro-tankers are. I don't even like the word tank, because often people think that we're asking coaches or players to throw games.