Raptors on the Rise?

[Masai Ujiri]

Most of the animosity towards pro-tankers from anti-tankers, stems from the fact that a large chunk of the pro-tankers act like know-it-alls. Tanking in many of their minds is the only way this team can be rebuilt, which quite frankly is wrong.

I'm actually a pro-tanker, but I understand that there are alternatives to an all-out tank. That being said, I'm not in favour of shipping out guys who could be long-term positive contributors/starters for this team (like Amir and DeMar) for lesser talent just to tank. Doesn't make any sense.

I feel like Ujiri's philosophy is to come out on top in every deal. He always wants to bring back more value to the team in terms of players/prospects/picks/fit than he's giving out, which is great. Lopsided transactions (in the other team's favor) shouldn't be made just to try and achieve some goal like tanking. We should never be shortchanging ourselves on our assets.

For example, I swear for the past 2 years people have been saying this crap about "Sell DD now while his value is high". Well I'm pretty sure his value now is higher than 2 years ago, so had we sold him 2 years ago we wouldn't have gotten near the return that we COULD get now. It's just delusional thinking. Those kind of moves can really hurt a team.

[Masai Ujiri]

Philly and Chitown doing it proper...waving at Raptors in rearview mirror

Philly, yes, they're tanking pretty hard.

Chicago isn't tanking. They're playing the exact same lineup that they normally do, the problem is they don't have Derrick Rose. That's not tanking at all.

[CalgaryRapsFan]

For those feeling good about last two Raps wins: PHI down 27 to Brooklyn, Bulls down at half to Magic in Chicago.

— Eric Koreen (@ekoreen) December 17, 2013

Philly now down 37

Bulls down 16

Hater!

[thead]

1.) I'm not a pro-tanker, in the sense that I think it is a good thing - I just think the CBA, and Draft Rules make it an evil necessity

2.) pro-tankers are coming off like know-it-alls, because we are right and you are wrong. I know someone told you a long time ago that you are entitled to your opinion (and that is technically true) But if your opinion comes from your ass, it's going to stink.

3.) We have all kinds of facts and stats and interesting things to back that up with. If you can't see that, it's not our fault. When your GM comes right out and says "WE WILL NOT BE A TREADMILL TEAM", I'm not sure why there is still a debate. The debate is no longer will it be blown up, but how.

[MixxAOR]

Philly is tanking the season and tanking MCW's development.

[white men can't jump]

Most of the animosity towards pro-tankers from anti-tankers, stems from the fact that a large chunk of the pro-tankers act like know-it-alls. Tanking in many of their minds is the only way this team can be rebuilt, which quite frankly is wrong.

I'm actually a pro-tanker, but I understand that there are alternatives to an all-out tank. That being said, I'm not in favour of shipping out guys who could be long-term positive contributors/starters for this team (like Amir and DeMar) for lesser talent just to tank. Doesn't make any sense.

I feel like Ujiri's philosophy is to come out on top in every deal. He always wants to bring back more value to the team in terms of players/prospects/picks/fit than he's giving out, which is great. Lopsided transactions (in the other team's favor) shouldn't be made just to try and achieve some goal like tanking. We should never be shortchanging ourselves on our assets.

For example, I swear for the past 2 years people have been saying this crap about "Sell DD now while his value is high". Well I'm pretty sure his value now is higher than 2 years ago, so had we sold him 2 years ago we wouldn't have gotten near the return that we COULD get now. It's just delusional thinking. Those kind of moves can really hurt a team.

Very VERY few people who consider themselves tankers advocate this. There have already been whole threads about it.

Most people just see the benefits a high draft pick (not just Wiggins) would bring this team at this time. It would help a lot, not just because of the potential to get a real gamechanger, but also because this team still could use more cheap young pieces to work with in any scenario. They are usually linchpins in any deal, and right now we basically only have Jonas and Ross. And in case anyone sucks at reading between the lines, Jonas is very likely the guy Ujiri was referencing recently when talking about it taking a Michael Jordan to warrant trading him.

I mean Ujiri has done good work so far, but we still lack pieces to either build the team around, or build trade packages around that won't end up in lateral moves or creating big holes elsewhere. One or two more draft picks can make a huge difference.

The only pieces we have locked in beyond this season that are pieces you can build with are Jonas, DeMar, Amir and Ross (the rest are spare parts). But if we get one high pick and ideally another half-decent pick (though I don't necessarily expect such an ideal to happen)...well then we have Jonas, DeMar, Amir, Ross, one or two more good young pieces, all our own future picks, and improved cap flexibility....If you try to build around what we have now and make trades, you lose a lot of that. You lose one or two young pieces from a shallower talent pool, possibly future picks and possibly diminish your flexibility. It's not a certainty, but it does surely make it much harder for Ujiri to take this team a step(s) forward.

I don't consider myself much of a tanker (I despise watching my team lose), but I think for this season, it makes a lot of sense to want a high pick. And I have yet to read a non-tanking argument that is very rational. They are built on hopes of modest success attracting FA talent, despite the fact that it's damn near impossible to attract top tier talent in free agency, so many teams end up settling for worse choices at high prices because they still have to outbid others. Or that we will be able to make a gamechanging trade...but again, as currently built it's hard to see that working without gutting the team in some way and creating a hole that will be harder to fill after getting that talent.

I understand some can't stand the idea of losing, but if we're going to be trying to build a winner, I'd like it to be one that can move up into the top tier of the NBA, and not just modest success that is incredibly difficult to improve upon. I don't just want the equivalent of a playoff participation ribbon for a couple of years. I want a real chance at the trophy, where we are actually among teams considered favorites to win for a few seasons. I want to go down Yonge Street with freshly dyed red hair (or whatever colours they might use if they re-brand) having an absurd party singing "We are the champions" at the top of my lungs...where beer is dyed red too...where people have Raptor claws tattooed anywhere they can...where the party's still going the next day when the players land and parade down Yonge street still smelling of sweat and champagne, with Jonas screaming "Wictory Baby!!" and DeMar dancing while holding the trophy in one hand and his babygirl in the other.

**Sidenote: Also, about DD, many guys who have wanted him traded was never really because of a tanking argument. Many just thought he was done growing (I was not one of them). This is about maximizing value, not tanking. For example, shopping Lowry now is trying to maximize his value. Situation is not really the same, but I reference Lowry because both pro and anti tankers surely realize the merit in trying to see if you can get something for someone who likely won't return next year instead of letting him leave for nothing. If you don't get a good offer, so be it, but you have to try. Pro tankers just also tend to cite the benefit it has in possibly improving our draft position.

Rant over.

[Fully]

Most of the animosity towards pro-tankers from anti-tankers, stems from the fact that a large chunk of the pro-tankers act like know-it-alls. Tanking in many of their minds is the only way this team can be rebuilt, which quite frankly is wrong.

I'm actually a pro-tanker, but I understand that there are alternatives to an all-out tank. That being said, I'm not in favour of shipping out guys who could be long-term positive contributors/starters for this team (like Amir and DeMar) for lesser talent just to tank. Doesn't make any sense.

I feel like Ujiri's philosophy is to come out on top in every deal. He always wants to bring back more value to the team in terms of players/prospects/picks/fit than he's giving out, which is great. Lopsided transactions (in the other team's favor) shouldn't be made just to try and achieve some goal like tanking. We should never be shortchanging ourselves on our assets.

For example, I swear for the past 2 years people have been saying this crap about "Sell DD now while his value is high". Well I'm pretty sure his value now is higher than 2 years ago, so had we sold him 2 years ago we wouldn't have gotten near the return that we COULD get now. It's just delusional thinking. Those kind of moves can really hurt a team.

For the 50th time - no one wants Ujiri to shortchange himself in deals just to get really bad this season!

[psrs1]

Because that's what journalists are supposed to do: be cheerleaders!

You're too used to Doug Smith.

I ignore Smith. Koreen's point of last 2 wins against crap teams is fine but the way he posts it is that of a hater. Any given night any team can win and really all that should matter is whist you do against an opponent not what other teams do to each other. It is all in the presentation.

[Fully]

"Tanker" is the term most commonly used now, which is fine, it's only a label. But what myself and most of the others who get lumped into this category have been advocating from the start is almost exactly what Ujiri is doing. It's a properly done rebuild.

We didn't want to hold a firesale where the team got 10 cents on the dollar for all of their assets. We wanted guys like Gay/Lowry/Hansbro/Novak shipped out as we didn't think they would be in the team's long term plans, and in the case of Lowry/Gay, certainly not at the price tag they carry. Since I didn't think it was realistic to expect really good players coming back in return for these guys, and the remaining core would be relatively young and inexperienced, asking for prospects and draft picks seemed to make the most sense.

I can't speak for others but my stance on guys like DD and Amir is, and always has been, that we should consider trading them if a really strong offer is posed. Now, my idea of a really strong offer may be a little different than some of you guys, but that's a different topic altogether. The main point is that I'm not trying to give them away. If they survive the tear down, no problem. I like both of them, and neither has a crippling contract. But I'm not going to be devastated to see them moved for a good return either.

During this roster turnover period, it seems logical to me that the team would shift from a "playoffs or bust" mentality to one that emphasizes the development of our young players and the accumulation of assets. It's a transition year basically. Guys like Ross and JV will be allowed to play through more mistakes. Guys like Patterson and Vasquez will get bumped up minutes to get a better idea of where they stand as pro players. While all of this is going on - WHY ON EARTH would you not want to get as high of a draft pick as possible? That doesn't mean you throw out all the other parts of effective team building ("winning" trades from an asset in/asset out standpoint, signing value contracts, getting multiple picks, etc.) and cross your fingers that you draft the next Lebron or KD. It's ALL part of the bigger plan.

Everyone wants to jump on the Houston model all of a sudden. They are claiming that they didn't have to bottom out to get a superstar, and they're absolutely right, they didn't. But they did have assets and flexibility pouring out of their organization. Young, cheap, expendable players with a lot of upside. More draft picks than they knew what to do with. Huge chunks of cap room in multiple summers. If this is the route that Ujiri goes for - awesome - but he still has a long ways to go. Trading Rudy Gay for a collection of bit pieces from the Kings has not solved all of the team's problems. The 3-1 record since he left is fantastic, and the quality of basketball has improved ten fold. But the real questions should be whether the success is sustainable, and how do the Raptors take the next step to become a contender. Do not lose sight of the long term goals after one week of short term success.

The team still isn't particularly talented and is still missing that legit number one option that it will take to make it a top team in the Conference. If Ujiri can swing a Harden-like trade over the next couple of months using guys like Salmons/Hansbrough/Ross then I'll be ecstatic, but I personally feel like the most realistic way to get that type of 1A player is via a high draft pick. Does it come with a guarantee? Absolutely not, but I think it has the highest chance to be successful when comapared to the other methods: free agency or trade. Plus if the goal is to accumulate as many assets as possible in order to leave all the options on the table for Masai ala the Rockets - a top five pick in a loaded draft is basically the ultimate asset you can have.

This whole debate started with two groups really. Those who thought that the Raptors were a sure fire playoff bet this season, and those who thought the team was destined to go nowhere. It took all of about two weeks to show who was correct. Now the same group of people who fell flat on their face predicting success for Rudy/DD/Lowry/etc are talking down to us because we fail to see the greatness in this new group. It's been 4 games! The team is nowhere near a championship level yet, and since Ujiri and Leiweke have both explicitly stated that it is the goal, I'd say the work is just beginning.

[Nilanka]

I still boggles my mind that some haven't accepted the tank is in full effect.

[stooley]

I still boggles my mind that some haven't accepted the tank is in full effect.

It's still debateable in my opinion. I hope that it is, but, MU built his team a certain way in Denver. Maybe he's that type of GM, the way Mike D'Antoni is a certain type of coach.

[Superjudge]

I like Doug Smith.

I think a good portion of people who are younger don't get him.

He's a lot more of a traditional beat guy, I like that.

[Superjudge]

I still boggles my mind that some haven't accepted the tank is in full effect.

Then MU is no better than BC, and its being poorly played out. Because its numbers, and you have to extrapolate. every win, is like 4 wins in a tank race. Trust me.

Toronto just went 3-1, and it was like going 9-3.

they fell far out of the tank race doing that, and now, literally need a 6 game losing streak just to catch up.

[stooley]

Then MU is no better than BC, and its being poorly played out. Because its numbers, and you have to extrapolate. every win, is like 4 wins in a tank race. Trust me.

Toronto just went 3-1, and it was like going 9-3.

they fell far out of the tank race doing that, and now, literally need a 6 game losing streak just to catch up.

6 game losing streak doesn't seem that far out of reach. remember when we were 6-7? before being 6-12?

[OldSkoolCool]

This whole debate started with two groups really. Those who thought that the Raptors were a sure fire playoff bet this season, and those who thought the team was destined to go nowhere. It took all of about two weeks to show who was correct. Now the same group of people who fell flat on their face predicting success for Rudy/DD/Lowry/etc are talking down to us because we fail to see the greatness in this new group. It's been 4 games! The team is nowhere near a championship level yet, and since Ujiri and Leiweke have both explicitly stated that it is the goal, I'd say the work is just beginning.

Nailed it, thank you for bringing this up....I've been keeping kinda quiet and just letting this blow over so I don't sound like a broken record that the team is going to do a rebuild via the draft