Alternatives to tanking. Please be civil

[stooley]

Hello, this is a call to all of those that have been drowned out by the constant tanking rhetoric on these foums.

Personally, I am of the belief that tanking this season, and potentially the next would make the raptors a better team. But this thread is not for those beliefs!

I am sincerely interested to hear well thought out, structured opinions on what strategy the raptors should pursue as an alternative to tanking. Please be civil.

I'm not asking for research papers here, but I find well backed up arguments much more convincing.

Please, for those on the "tanking side", do not hijack this thread and turn it into a flame war. Let this be a depository of information and arguments.

Why do you not want to see the raptors tank? Will it make them worse in the long term? Will the basketball be unbearable to watch?

How do you see the raptors moving forwards? What pieces are missing from this team that could help bring the Raptors to where YOU expect them to be?

I am sincerely curious to hear the other side of this argument.

Note: I am aware that no strategy is guaranteed to pan out. As a fan, I would like to pursue the one that provides the most likelihood of success.

Finally: I made this thread because I would like to hear an argument constructed from the bottom up. I feel like many of the "anti-tankers" (I hate that term) have had to produce arguments mid-way through threads, and their arguments are then taken out of context and the whole idea gets sidetracked.

[Superjudge]

Sign Lebron James.

[stooley]

Sign Lebron James.

Please don't. I know you're just joking, but I'm trying to engage in a civil conversation here

[ezz_bee]

As a an unapologetic tanker, I endorse this thread 100%. Hopefully there are some ideas here that make me re-evaluate my stance.

[pece]

As long as the Raps can make the playoffs with a winning record, I'm against tanking!

[CalgaryRapsFan]

If tanking means "purposefully lose (at least at the GM level) to improve own draft positioning", then I've never been in favor of tanking.

As much as I believe this team could compete for the playoffs in an historically bad EC this season (memories of 2006-07), I don't believe the core is good enough to be truly competitive in any sustainable way.

I would much prefer MU to rebuild/retool this team. Players that don't factor into the team's long-term plans should be cashed-in (ie: Bargnani & Gay), while assets (ie: prospects, draft picks & cap space) should be acquired.

I completely agree that the Bargnani trade (a fresh start was needed for both parties), the Gay trade (huge contract, uncertainty and black-hole made it addition by subtraction) and even the rumored Lowry trade (expiring contract and addition of Vasquez made him expendable), did not necessarily signal the true direction MU plans to take this team. They all seem to favor the long-term to the short-term, but hardly in the 'waving the white flag on this season' way.

I still expect (hope) the following players to be shopped heavily up to the deadline and/or at the draft, in the name of a proper rebuild/retool/team-building:
- Lowry (expiring)
- Novak (old)
- Hansborough (more valuable as an asset on a value contract with a team option and only $1M guaranteed)
- Salmons (only $1M guaranteed for next season is best thing about him)
- Hayes (old and bad contract; fairly unlikely unless salary is needed)

If moving these players improves the team and they are competitive for the playoffs, so be it.

If moving these players results in a "tank" for the rest of the season, so be it.

The bottom line is that I want MU to [re]build the Raptors the right way, much more efficiently and effectively than his predecessor (BC). I want this team to be built to become perennial contenders, for the long-term. I'm not overly concerned what happens in the short-term (either way), since the whole point of my preferred approach is to not be dependent on any single transaction (ie: Raptors' own 2014 1st round pick) and to stick to the strategy and see the plan through.

[S.R.]

I'll re-post from the main page here, if that's alright. Hopefully it's not too redundant:

Ujiri is a patient guy who clearly demands a good return on every transaction. According to league sources and the players themselves (Gay post-trade), almost everyone on this roster is available for the right price. For the right price.

Ujiri would want picks, prospects, and flexibility first of all, but would, I think, take an offer that clearly improved the team with a more established player. Does anyone honestly think he's ruled out any opportunities that present themselves, just because he's already decided on a course of action (i.e. tank/don't tank)?

I'd summarize my take on his MO like this:
1) Keep all your options open. Don't rule out anything.
2) Get a good return on every deal.
3) Maintain flexibility while acquiring assets.
4) Improve the team with every transaction - whether with short-term or long-term benefits

To the anti-tankers, I'd say Ujiri's comments (and TL's) seem to indicate that he's willing to absorb some short-term pain for long-term gain if he thinks that's the best road forward. He wants this team to be much better than it has in the past, and if that means some more losses this season for a payoff down the road, then so be it.

To the pro-tankers, clearly he's not so set on scoring big in the 2014 draft that he's going to fire-sale the entire roster. He's going to be patient and see what the opportunities there are for transactions. Maybe the offers are good enough to unload several players and hit a home run in the next draft. Maybe the offers just aren't there and he moves forward with some of the current core, current 2014 picks, and an eye to future transactions.

Basically, I don't think that even he knows how the "rebuild" will play out. His goal is to improve this roster, dramatically. How he gets there will depend on so many variables that are outside of his control.

[mcHAPPY]

Hello, this is a call to all of those that have been drowned out by the constant tanking rhetoric on these foums.

Personally, I am of the belief that tanking this season, and potentially the next would make the raptors a better team. But this thread is not for those beliefs!

I am sincerely interested to hear well thought out, structured opinions on what strategy the raptors should pursue as an alternative to tanking. Please be civil.

I'm not asking for research papers here, but I find well backed up arguments much more convincing.

Please, for those on the "tanking side", do not hijack this thread and turn it into a flame war. Let this be a depository of information and arguments.

Why do you not want to see the raptors tank? Will it make them worse in the long term? Will the basketball be unbearable to watch?

How do you see the raptors moving forwards? What pieces are missing from this team that could help bring the Raptors to where YOU expect them to be?

I am sincerely curious to hear the other side of this argument.

Note: I am aware that no strategy is guaranteed to pan out. As a fan, I would like to pursue the one that provides the most likelihood of success.

Finally: I made this thread because I would like to hear an argument constructed from the bottom up. I feel like many of the "anti-tankers" (I hate that term) have had to produce arguments mid-way through threads, and their arguments are then taken out of context and the whole idea gets sidetracked.

http://www.raptorsrepublic.com/forum...in-post-358%29


MERGE!


Topic has been done before and beaten to a bloody pulp.


A lot of 'pro-tankers' started out as 'builders', like myself, just a heads up, as you'll see perusing that thread.


Here is reality (or my reality which means it is all yours as well, suckas!):
1) Ujiri is building through the draft.
2) Raps have limited assets of appeal to trade.
3) If appealing assets are traded for star, how does team build?
4) Talent is found throughout the draft but overwhelming majority found at the top with highest probability.
5) Free agents want money and a chance to win; Raps can provide money but difficult to see winning as roster currently constructed.
6) The draft is almost a near certainty to lock players in for 8-9 years.
7) Raps have big advantage with wealthy ownership looking for content on TV stations. Build through draft, remove long term contracts, have major cap space with significant free agents available and very talented roster in a couple of years, use Bird rights and ownership deep pockets to resign rookie deals without fear of luxury tax.
8) No one method of building guarantees success.
9) Draft most likely way to find star talent.

yada yada yada yada *ZZZZZZZZ*

[Uncle_Si]

I guess if DeRozan has a stellar year and there is a prospect worth it in the draft, MU could always try to put a draft day trade together once the positions have all been set as a way to move up. Hm. Maybe we don't have to tank?

[Superjudge]

Please don't. I know you're just joking, but I'm trying to engage in a civil conversation here

That was my suggestion.

Its a very simple plan. How you do it is the real trick.

[Mediumcore]

My reasons for why the Raptors could/should/would possibly not tank are:

- If the Raptors are a team much like last years Denver (not saying they are, but IF), then we can beat anyone in the East besides the top two dogs
- Assuming the type of team that has been assembled is as the Denver team was (talented players, no super stars, but great depth, shooting, team chemistry), the Raptors team is actually a better version of it because our defense is much better, imo.
- Of the two top dogs, we always play Indiana well, and though we lost Gay, whom always seemed to play well against Paul George, we have much better 3 point shooting now, and better post D. We won against Noah/Boozer/Gibson/Deng with our defense. Can't we do the same against Indiana?
- Miami is Miami, we aren't going to beat them with defense alone.

[Uncle_Si]

My reasons for why the Raptors could/should/would possibly not tank are:

- If the Raptors are a team much like last years Denver (not saying they are, but IF), then we can beat anyone in the East besides the top two dogs
- Assuming the type of team that has been assembled is as the Denver team was (talented players, no super stars, but great depth, shooting, team chemistry), the Raptors team is actually a better version of it because our defense is much better, imo.
- Of the two top dogs, we always play Indiana well, and though we lost Gay, whom always seemed to play well against Paul George, we have much better 3 point shooting now, and better post D. We won against Noah/Boozer/Gibson/Deng with our defense. Can't we do the same against Indiana?
- Miami is Miami, we aren't going to beat them with defense alone.

You don't actually think this team would stand a chance against Indiana in the play offs do you?

[p00ka]

If tanking means "purposefully lose (at least at the GM level) to improve own draft positioning", then I've never been in favor of tanking.

As much as I believe this team could compete for the playoffs in an historically bad EC this season (memories of 2006-07), I don't believe the core is good enough to be truly competitive in any sustainable way.

I would much prefer MU to rebuild/retool this team. Players that don't factor into the team's long-term plans should be cashed-in (ie: Bargnani & Gay), while assets (ie: prospects, draft picks & cap space) should be acquired.

I completely agree that the Bargnani trade (a fresh start was needed for both parties), the Gay trade (huge contract, uncertainty and black-hole made it addition by subtraction) and even the rumored Lowry trade (expiring contract and addition of Vasquez made him expendable), did not necessarily signal the true direction MU plans to take this team. They all seem to favor the long-term to the short-term, but hardly in the 'waving the white flag on this season' way.

I still expect (hope) the following players to be shopped heavily up to the deadline and/or at the draft, in the name of a proper rebuild/retool/team-building:
- Lowry (expiring)
- Novak (old)
- Hansborough (more valuable as an asset on a value contract with a team option and only $1M guaranteed)
- Salmons (only $1M guaranteed for next season is best thing about him)
- Hayes (old and bad contract; fairly unlikely unless salary is needed)

If moving these players improves the team and they are competitive for the playoffs, so be it.

If moving these players results in a "tank" for the rest of the season, so be it.

The bottom line is that I want MU to [re]build the Raptors the right way, much more efficiently and effectively than his predecessor (BC). I want this team to be built to become perennial contenders, for the long-term. I'm not overly concerned what happens in the short-term (either way), since the whole point of my preferred approach is to not be dependent on any single transaction (ie: Raptors' own 2014 1st round pick) and to stick to the strategy and see the plan through.

I'll re-post from the main page here, if that's alright. Hopefully it's not too redundant:

Ujiri is a patient guy who clearly demands a good return on every transaction. According to league sources and the players themselves (Gay post-trade), almost everyone on this roster is available for the right price. For the right price.

Ujiri would want picks, prospects, and flexibility first of all, but would, I think, take an offer that clearly improved the team with a more established player. Does anyone honestly think he's ruled out any opportunities that present themselves, just because he's already decided on a course of action (i.e. tank/don't tank)?

I'd summarize my take on his MO like this:
1) Keep all your options open. Don't rule out anything.
2) Get a good return on every deal.
3) Maintain flexibility while acquiring assets.
4) Improve the team with every transaction - whether with short-term or long-term benefits

To the anti-tankers, I'd say Ujiri's comments (and TL's) seem to indicate that he's willing to absorb some short-term pain for long-term gain if he thinks that's the best road forward. He wants this team to be much better than it has in the past, and if that means some more losses this season for a payoff down the road, then so be it.

To the pro-tankers, clearly he's not so set on scoring big in the 2014 draft that he's going to fire-sale the entire roster. He's going to be patient and see what the opportunities there are for transactions. Maybe the offers are good enough to unload several players and hit a home run in the next draft. Maybe the offers just aren't there and he moves forward with some of the current core, current 2014 picks, and an eye to future transactions.

Basically, I don't think that even he knows how the "rebuild" will play out. His goal is to improve this roster, dramatically. How he gets there will depend on so many variables that are outside of his control.

Totally on board with what both of these posts say, especially CalgaryRapsfan's "If tanking means "purposefully lose (at least at the GM level) to improve own draft positioning", then I've never been in favor of tanking.". From day 1, that has been part of the "tank" solution, as it should be, seeing as that's the concept after which the term was coined to describe.

Anything I try to add to what these two quoted posters said, would just be repeating the same thing in different words. I trust that Ujiri is going to make very wise decisions, as he has so far, and that he sees far greater value in some of our players than what some here do, so will continue on his path to getting out of the mediocrity treadmill without tanking.

[stooley]

Well sorry for the redundant thread guys, but I've found all your posts very interesting and informative.

I was definitely losing site of the future, with an obsession over the 2014 draft. All the tank talk was starting to get to me. I guess I'll just enjoy the ride.

[Superjudge]

dream Big Stooley!