Alternatives to tanking. Please be civil

[p00ka]

I guess if DeRozan has a stellar year and there is a prospect worth it in the draft, MU could always try to put a draft day trade together once the positions have all been set as a way to move up. Hm. Maybe we don't have to tank?

Though I in no way think Ujiri is stuck on any Step 1,2,3 Plan, I've been suggesting that as a real possibility for months. Not only would he know what the draft positions are, but would also have a much better idea of the potential of the kids being drafted, and which ones have even declared.

[stooley]

dream Big Stooley!

With a name like that, I'm destined for greatness!

[Superjudge]

hahahahaha

[Masai Ujiri]

My view is you don't part with a long-term asset just to tank (see Amir and DeRozan). You deal them if you're clearly winning the trade, you don't just ship them out to accumulate losses.

The guys that make sense to move during a tank are guys with albatross contracts (Bargnani and Gay), and guys who most likely will not be a part of your team going forward (Lowry and his expiring contract). You use those players to accumulate flexibility and assets.

[Mediumcore]

You don't actually think this team would stand a chance against Indiana in the play offs do you?

It's a positive thread, so I'm trying to look at things through rosey glasses. Just say our D continues to go toe to toe with Indiana as they seem to always do. We've got a lot of bigs, JV, Amir, Hansborough, Patterson, Hayes to throw at Hibbert and West. D. West just kills us every game in the post, but Hayes is a really good post defender, and Amir/JV are getting better and better as the season progresses. If we can play solid perimeter D on George (now that Gay is gone) and Lance Stephenson, then we have a shot.

One of the great things about the Rudy Gay trade which nobody talks about is the infusion of veteran players. Hayes, Salmons are guys that have been around the league for a long time and are can teach guys like JV, DeMar and Ross a thing or two. These are the type of guys which Casey likes to coach because he can trust them with their defensive assignments on the floor. Not to mention a veteran PG like Lowry knows how to play with guys like them.

[Marz]

The alternative to tanking is what we're currently doing. We were never in a good enough position to tank, especially with the way Utah and some other teams set themselves up. And trading away key players to try and ensure losses isn't what I consider entertaining. That's right, I watch the raptors to be entertained. Do I want them to win a championship? Sure, but that takes a backseat to my enjoyment. And I enjoy watching them play entertaining basketball.

So the alternative is quite simple: Let Masai do what he needs to do. Selling the farm right now may ensure a top pick NEXT season, but this season? It's too late.

[JawsGT]

There are basically two options in my mind:

1. Strip the roster of anyone that contributes to winning and can return financial flexibility, prospects and/or picks, in order to create a roster that can't win (i.e. to tank) so that we improve our own draft position.

2. Anything else basically qualifies as a tweeking and/or (re)building IMO. MU would need to move Lowry, Amir and Demar and get very little in return that can contribute to winning now in order to facilitate a tank (or perhaps just 2 of 3). With Bargs and Gay gone, the only sketchy contract left on the books is Fields, and I'm sure that MU is exploring all the options to move that contract. If that happens, I think the roster from top to bottom could be considered value contracts, in terms of either monetary value or length of contract. This is what I believe MU is trying to achieve more than anything this year. I do not think a top5 draft pick is necessarily his target. I never did believe that he would intentionally tank. I always thought he would move forward trying to build HIS team without having to dwell in the basement for a few seasons. How to do that is beyond me really. I am anti-tank as a matter of principle, so I would love to see moves that improve the team now but DO NOT prohibit the ability to improve in later seasons. That flexibility is the key, but I honestly do not know what types of trades could be made now that bring in top talent. I think for this season, we are unlikely to acquire any higher end players for the here and now. But the flexibility that MU is getting out of his moves means we might be able to do that in the offseason or later.

I would have to do a lot of research to come up with a specific plan. What players do we try to keep? What players can we target that are already in the league and acquirable to help improve the team? Can we put together a package by draft day to improve our draft position and possibly land a top5'er without relying on our own pick? This is research I also do not want to do. Why? Because regardless of what I come up with, there is perhaps a 99% chance or greater that it will sound crazy to all on RR, will never come to fruition and is ultimately a complete waste of my time. If TFTW had to suggest on the trade forums to move Bargs to NYK for Novak, Qrich, Camby and 3 draft picks, one can only imagine the types of responses he would get.

But again, there are only two options: tank or anything else. Trading Lowry now but keeping DD and Amir on board doesn't really help the tank enough with Vasquez now here. We could still be hanging around the bottom playoff seeds after the season without Lowry, so more than that has to be done. I also fear the Darko Milicic, and although I don't have a specific plan, I can't see why trying to bring in a top tier guy to go with JV and DD is such a bad idea, or that it is impossible.

[MACK11]

CalgaryRapsfan's has sad it beautifully hahah

[KeonClark]

Are you guys seriously not sick of this topic yet? Borderline obsessive...

[mcHAPPY]

Are you guys seriously not sick of this topic yet? Borderline obsessive...

Nothing borderline about it

[stooley]

I almost feel like someone should sticky a select few posts from these threads. May as well have everyone starting from the same point.

[themasao]

I honestly don't think, the way the East is right now (and with Utah in the west), that it's possible to tank based on the current roster.

Two main reasons:

1) We are not out-tanking any of: Utah, Milwaukee, Philly, Orlando. Which means the only remaining slot even plausibly available is No. 5. Problem is, there is another LARGE handful of teams that are very likely to be in serious competition for that pick. (Chicago, New York, Sacramento, Boston, Brooklyn, Cleveland). There are so many bad teams. If you make moves to try to get worse and you win even a couple games you weren't expecting to, you could almost miss the lottery altogether.

2) Aside from the putrid quality of the NBA's current bottom-feeders, the Raptors aren't constructed in a way that is easily dismantable. Especially since the Gay trade, trade the best player at any starting position, and the drop off to the next bench player is not that significant. Trade Lowry, you'll lose a few more games, but Vasquez is a league average starting PG. Trade Amir and Patterson/Hansborough present only a small drop off.

Masai would need to make several major trades, by the end of which he might not be getting good value (due to the fire-sale) in order to make this team bad enough to compete for a good pick.

It's not even so much that I don't want the team to tank -- I just don't see a plausible way to go about doing it.

[2kfeen]

Tanking blindly is not the solution.
There are too many variables involved.
What if you dont get the top pick? What if your pick gets injured/doesn't live up to expectations? What if your pick is holding your franchise hostage (Demarcus Cousins, Dwight Howard)? What if your bad enough to be a 6-8th seed, but not a lottery pick recipient?

That's why the Pacers rebuild was conceived and we are already on our way through it.

1. Get your locker room cancers, chuckers out of the picture (Bargnani, Alan Anderson, Kleiza, John Lucas III, Gay)
2. Stay financially flexible.
3. Don't overpay glorified role players
4. Keep only players who put effort on both sides of the ball and are willing to play as a team (Johnson, Hansbrough, Lowry, Vasquez, and nowadays Derozan)
5. Sell players high on the trade market and trade veterans who won't be around when the team is competitive for top dollar (Lowry, Johnson)
6. Get young prospects via trade/free agency who are ready to breakout and harvest them (could even be guys like Xavier Henry, Wes Johnson, etc.)
7. Make smart-draft day trades and draft right.

With our aggressive GM, I think we can be back in the playoff picture by the end of next season.

[Masai Ujiri]

Tanking blindly is not the solution.
There are too many variables involved.
What if you dont get the top pick? What if your pick gets injured/doesn't live up to expectations? What if your pick is holding your franchise hostage (Demarcus Cousins, Dwight Howard)? What if your bad enough to be a 6-8th seed, but not a lottery pick recipient?

That's why the Pacers rebuild was conceived and we are already on our way through it.

1. Get your locker room cancers, chuckers out of the picture (Bargnani, Alan Anderson, Kleiza, John Lucas III, Gay)
2. Stay financially flexible.
3. Don't overpay glorified role players
4. Keep only players who put effort on both sides of the ball and are willing to play as a team (Johnson, Hansbrough, Lowry, Vasquez, and nowadays Derozan)
5. Sell players high on the trade market and trade veterans who won't be around when the team is competitive for top dollar (Lowry, Johnson)
6. Get young prospects via trade/free agency who are ready to breakout and harvest them (could even be guys like Xavier Henry, Wes Johnson, etc.)
7. Make smart-draft day trades and draft right.

With our aggressive GM, I think we can be back in the playoff picture by the end of next season.

Excellent post man.

[mcHAPPY]

Tanking blindly is not the solution.
There are too many variables involved.
What if you dont get the top pick? What if your pick gets injured/doesn't live up to expectations? What if your pick is holding your franchise hostage (Demarcus Cousins, Dwight Howard)? What if your bad enough to be a 6-8th seed, but not a lottery pick recipient?

That's why the Pacers rebuild was conceived and we are already on our way through it.

1. Get your locker room cancers, chuckers out of the picture (Bargnani, Alan Anderson, Kleiza, John Lucas III, Gay)
2. Stay financially flexible.
3. Don't overpay glorified role players
4. Keep only players who put effort on both sides of the ball and are willing to play as a team (Johnson, Hansbrough, Lowry, Vasquez, and nowadays Derozan)
5. Sell players high on the trade market and trade veterans who won't be around when the team is competitive for top dollar (Lowry, Johnson)
6. Get young prospects via trade/free agency who are ready to breakout and harvest them (could even be guys like Xavier Henry, Wes Johnson, etc.)
7. Make smart-draft day trades and draft right.

With our aggressive GM, I think we can be back in the playoff picture by the end of next season.

I did a thread on the comparison to Indiana.

Not quite accurate now with Gay traded but certainly starts the process of building like Indiana did.

http://www.raptorsrepublic.com/forum...ike-the-Pacers