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The Integrity Conundrum

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  • The Integrity Conundrum

    Had a thought while I was watching the game today:

    How can Masai make a move to tank while the team is playing so well?

    It's possible he's very frustrated by the success the team has had post-Gay, because it makes it so hard (objectively, from a non-analytic standpoint) to justify blowing it up.

    Think about it:
    A lot of teams are tanking this year.
    As relatively avid fans of basketball, we know this (though it was never publicly announced).
    But almost all of them were tanking out of the gate.
    They made their moves in the offeseason.

    If the Raps were to blow it up, right now, while winning and looking good, it would probably be the most blatant case of tanking ever attempted.
    Has a team ever done it?
    How many casual fans would understand it?
    Will the MLSE allow it?

    Folks around here are very interested in basketball.
    Most of you know the ins and outs of the game, and the business behind the game.
    Most don't.
    I didn't, for many years - all I cared about was how good the players on the team were.
    That me, that passionate but uninformed fan, would not have been happy about the Raptors shipping out Amir and Lowry and DeRozan for draft picks; would not have been happy about going from exciting and interesting basketball to...what the Knicks are doing.
    It's a tough pill to swallow, even if you are told that it's the right path to future success (and how many fans would believe this, without doing all the research that we do?)

    It's a real tricky position for the MLSE to be in.
    Maintaining integrity while doing what's right for the future.
    Tricky.

    This may, realistically, be what Masai has to wrestle with more than anything:
    Not the business of basketball, but the concessions to business.

  • #2
    to be completely honest, the casual fan just knows #tankingforwiggins even if the casual fan has never even seen wiggins play in any way at all. my gauge of the 'casual raptors fan' are the ones on the raptors facebook page.

    this recent surge of wins of course makes it a bit more complicated as to which of the tanking argument to side on. but for the casual fan, it just depends on how the raptors are currently playing. one loss and casual fans will automatically be back on #tankingforwiggins.

    i mean its only been 7 games and hardcore fans here are already 100% sure they're not tanking. take that for whats it worth.

    on an unrelated note, wow vasquez is fucking horrible.

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    • #3
      iblastoff wrote: View Post
      to be completely honest, the casual fan just knows #tankingforwiggins even if the casual fan has never even seen wiggins play in any way at all. my gauge of the 'casual raptors fan' are the ones on the raptors facebook page.

      this recent surge of wins of course makes it a bit more complicated as to which of the tanking argument to side on. but for the casual fan, it just depends on how the raptors are currently playing. one loss and casual fans will automatically be back on #tankingforwiggins.

      i mean its only been 7 games and hardcore fans here are already 100% sure they're not tanking. take that for whats it worth.

      on an unrelated note, wow vasquez is fucking horrible.
      Was this post before those three 3's in the 4th?
      The Double Champ is here!
      Dynasty King: RRNBADLS7
      Raptors: Larry O'Brien

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      • #4
        Mack North wrote: View Post
        Was this post before those three 3's in the 4th?
        it was. but vasquez still stinks. streaky scorer. and this game he had a total of 1 fucking assist!!!! for a pg thats pathetic.

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        • #5
          being a good PG is also more a chemistry thing hes a good player hes literally been a rap like what 3 weeks now? let him know more about who he plays with besides their names.

          Lowry wasnt so hot last year now look at him racking up assists... Chemistry!

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          • #6
            Rapstor4Life wrote: View Post
            being a good PG is also more a chemistry thing hes a good player hes literally been a rap like what 3 weeks now? let him know more about who he plays with besides their names.

            Lowry wasnt so hot last year now look at him racking up assists... Chemistry!
            theres only a real rotation of about 8-9 players. lowry has as much to learn of the 3 new SAC players as vasquez does of the OG crew on the raps. lowrys recent burst is obviously due to a playstyle change. same way derozan has all of a sudden been padding his assist numbers despite being on this team for half a decade. not chemistry...play style change.

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            • #7
              iblastoff wrote: View Post
              it was. but vasquez still stinks. streaky scorer. and this game he had a total of 1 fucking assist!!!! for a pg thats pathetic.
              3/8 FG, 3/6 at the 3, 1 assist, -9 with 4 turnovers....and this against the Knicks. Them is scrub numbers.

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              • #8
                Vasquez seems to be trying to prove something. Always thought he was a pass first guy who would actually help players like JV with pick and rolls etc. Never recall him forcing so many terrible shots when he was with the Hornets. Maybe I just didn't see him play enough.

                But yeh, back to the orginal topic, will be interesting to see what Masai does to this team. The raptors are back to being very fun to watch again, and the players (especially the starting unit) are very likeable. At least I'll enjoy watching them for however long it is until he makes a move, which I probably haven't since Calderon was traded.
                Last edited by BigCamB; Sun Dec 29, 2013, 04:12 AM.

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                • #9
                  iblastoff wrote: View Post
                  to be completely honest, the casual fan just knows #tankingforwiggins even if the casual fan has never even seen wiggins play in any way at all. my gauge of the 'casual raptors fan' are the ones on the raptors facebook page.

                  this recent surge of wins of course makes it a bit more complicated as to which of the tanking argument to side on. but for the casual fan, it just depends on how the raptors are currently playing. one loss and casual fans will automatically be back on #tankingforwiggins.

                  i mean its only been 7 games and hardcore fans here are already 100% sure they're not tanking. take that for whats it worth.

                  on an unrelated note, wow vasquez is fucking horrible.
                  Was at a wedding last night.

                  Not a lot of hardcore Raptor/basketball fans - I think the label 'casual fan' is appropriate.

                  General consensus (and believe it or not, I bit my tongue and left my own opinions out) was Raptors are a joke; can't win when they are suppose to, can't lose when it is for the best long term interests of franchise. A lot of Wiggins talk, again casual fans. Only thing I said was there are a lot of good players at the top besides Wiggins.

                  Anyways..........

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                  • #10
                    BigCamB wrote: View Post
                    Vasquez seems to be trying to prove something. Always thought he was a pass first guy who would actually help players like JV with pick and rolls etc. Never recall him forcing so many terrible shots when he was with the Hornets. Maybe I just didn't see him play enough.

                    But yeh, back to the orginal topic, will be interesting to see what Masai does to this team. The raptors are back to being very fun to watch again, and the players (especially the starting unit) are very likeable. At least I'll enjoy watching them for however long it is until he makes a move, which I probably haven't since Calderon was traded.
                    Casey probably gave him a card with his role on it:

                    THREE POINT SHOOTER,
                    SECOND UNIT FIRST SCORING OPTION,
                    FIND YOUR INNER ALLEN IVERSON

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Matt52 wrote: View Post
                      Casey probably gave him a card with his role on it:

                      THREE POINT SHOOTER,
                      SECOND UNIT FIRST SCORING OPTION,
                      FIND YOUR INNER ALLEN IVERSON
                      xD
                      What they got to say now? Nothing they can say now. Mobbin' on the low. Winnin' on the low
                      The city embraced me, made me feel at home. The only difference [between Compton and Toronto] for me is the cold. -DeMar
                      No Where Near the South Side #WeTheNorth

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                      • #12
                        I agree it would be tough to break up a winning team. But are they a great team? They are only four wins away from the third lowest total. They beat the Thunder, who just played a statement game against the spurs the night before. Maybe an asterisk. They beat the Mavs. Legitimate. They lost to the spurs (acceptable) and then won back to back games against a team that is currently a farce. I think Masai sees that. If it's just sizzle, he'll sell it. The only problem is that our next 12 games are mostly against the Eastern Division which either means you play teams you're not supposed to beat (miami, indy) or all the teams you are (chi, boston, detroit, wash, nets, bucks). Some of the last group are playing better but even if we go on a run through this schedule, I'm not sure how much more we'll know about how good this team is. With a healthy dose of cynicism, you could say that it is no prize to win the Atlantic division this year.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Jclaw wrote: View Post
                          I agree it would be tough to break up a winning team. But are they a great team? They are only four wins away from the third lowest total. They beat the Thunder, who just played a statement game against the spurs the night before. Maybe an asterisk. They beat the Mavs. Legitimate. They lost to the spurs (acceptable) and then won back to back games against a team that is currently a farce. I think Masai sees that. If it's just sizzle, he'll sell it. The only problem is that our next 12 games are mostly against the Eastern Division which either means you play teams you're not supposed to beat (miami, indy) or all the teams you are (chi, boston, detroit, wash, nets, bucks). Some of the last group are playing better but even if we go on a run through this schedule, I'm not sure how much more we'll know about how good this team is. With a healthy dose of cynicism, you could say that it is no prize to win the Atlantic division this year.
                          See my next five games thread. If we walk out of that above .500 it's just that more difficult to tank. Three games against Miami and Indiana with two on the road.

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                          • #14
                            I honestly don't think he thought we'd be even worse. A lot even here knew we'd be better off.

                            This is the guy that traded Melo and watched his team blossom into one of the better teams in the west after all.
                            @sweatpantsjer

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                            • #15
                              I think most of us are looking at this the wrong way. We assume Masai was going to do one of two things based on how the season progressed early. If we sucked, blow it up, and if not make a playoff push. The team is on the fence and doesn't seem to want show MU which way to go. We did suck and MU traded Rudy. Now we don't suck but we are still in a position to go one way or the other.

                              However, I did believe before the season and continue to believe that MU doesn't care either way. He is not going to make short sighted, trigger happy type moves regardless of which way way they point the franchise. This season isn't about the team or the fans, it's about MU improving HIS position to make this team better going forward. If the right trade presents itself, he will make it, but he will not make a move to simply support a tank...he wants something in return for every move he makes, which is probably why Lowry is still here.

                              Think about it, he traded Bargs and got picks and a very tradeable Steve Novak. Asset collection. He traded Rudy, who clearly needed to go either way, and got back much needed financial flexibility. The players he received in that deal aren't game breakers, but 3 of the 4 are expiring and COULD be resigned to very cap friendly deals that won't hinder his ability to improve the team going forward. Plus the players he has signed are not inhibitory either, they are short term lower value contracts. DJ's contract, for example, had value in it because it was small enough to justify waiving him after picking up another PG. If he stays, no big deal as it doesn't break the bank even if he doesn't play.

                              Gaining flexibility and acquiring players/assets that improve HIS POSITION to make this team better over the next few years is what this season is all about. IMO.

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