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  • Masai Ujiri
    replied
    TSF wrote: View Post
    @Brandon- We've got no proof that says we'll be able to sustain this come playoff time. I don't see any way of us beating indiana or miami four times in seven games, and there's no real gaping flaw that's going to wreck the season like other teams who add a piece have.

    Also, Wall-Beal could end up being better by the end of the year. Parker-Ginobli? Beverly/Lin- Harden? Curry-Thompson for sure. Holiday/Gordon or Evans? Lilliard/Matthews? CP3/Redick?

    Name me a proven playoff guy on the team. It's not like we have a standout weak position or a weak bench. Our team right now looks like those 2nd round, get to the Eastern Conference Finals if we're lucky and get a good matchup, the hawks three years ago type team
    Yeah except here's the difference.

    - Every player on that Hawks team (2010-11) had already peaked or was about to peak
    - They had no notable prospects available besides Jeff Teague, and their 1st round pick belonged to Washington. No guys with high upside like Valanciunas or Ross on the roster
    - They were capped out in the short and long-term, JJ making 16M, Smoove at 11M, Crawford at 11M, Hinrich 9M, Marvin Williams at 7M, Horford due for a near max extension

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  • OldSkoolCool
    replied
    ^dig up bouncepass

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  • Bouncepass
    replied
    Brandon wrote:
    This is called the fallacy of incomplete evidence (cherrypicking). Afflalo's 12-13 was an aberration. Since he only played 64 of a possible 82 games, it could have been due to injuries. Afflalo's career numbers are far better than Derozan's. Derozan's career ORTG : DRTG is a negative number -- -6, while Afflalo's is a positive -- +2. Even this year, with his team dragging him down with them (-5), Afflalo's ratio is +5, and with Derozan's teammates winning (+2), Derozan's ratio is -1. Derozan's career ws/48 is .067, while Afflalo is .097, and that number is a bit low since Afflalo only got playing time when he left Detroit, and has missed time due to injuries. They've played almost the same number of minutes -- Afflalo has played 12353, 1435 more than Derozan, but Afflalo has 10 more win shares than Derozan in that time -- Derozan has 15 total. Derozan just does not affect a ball game nearly as much as Afflalo and there's no way you can doctor the numbers to claim he does.

    You conveniently failed to point all this evidence out, while undoubtedly being aware of it, because it contradicts your pro-Derozan views. I don't mind when someone does this type of thing by accident, but you appear to have done it on purpose, since to find the evidence you cherrypicked, you'd also have to find the evidence that proves everything you say is wrong.
    My point is that I am not convinced that Afflalo would be a significant upgrade on DeRozan over the medium to long term. I'm not so easily inclined to compare advanced stats when usage is so different between players. Afflalo's role has been very different over his career, and he came into the league two years more mature than DeRozan. Afflalo only really started to emerge as a player when he was the same age as DeRozan is now, and his usage only increased substantially last year (which was a dud). I see a lot of growth in DeRozan's game, which was also seen for Afflalo.

    Given contract and all else, I could be persuaded that Afflalo is a better overall bargain than DeRozan, but I think it's much closer than you seem to think, all things considered. I'm not ready to give him a complete pass for last year. Injuries factor into a player's worth, after all.

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  • Superjudge
    replied
    Afflalo is playin a bit better than DD, thats why you don't make the trade, the bad outweighs the good

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  • Bouncepass
    replied
    MangoKid wrote: View Post
    People on here talking garbage about Afflalo have no idea about his game and what kind of player he is. He's a really good, clutch shooter, has very good basketball IQ, a decent defender and seems to get better each year. I would love to have a guy like that on my team, but it all depends on price. It would be tough to give up on Ross right now, and I probably wouldn't.
    You mean Afflalo from this year, or last year?

    2012/13 stats for Afflalo:

    .439 FG%, 0.300 3PFG%, 3.7 RPG, 3.2 APG, 2.2 TPG, 16.5 PPG, WS 2.0 (0.042 WS / 48), ORtg 102, DRtg 112

    DeRozan's stats this year are much better than Afflalo's stats were last year.

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  • TSF
    replied
    @Brandon- We've got no proof that says we'll be able to sustain this come playoff time. I don't see any way of us beating indiana or miami four times in seven games, and there's no real gaping flaw that's going to wreck the season like other teams who add a piece have.

    Also, Wall-Beal could end up being better by the end of the year. Parker-Ginobli? Beverly/Lin- Harden? Curry-Thompson for sure. Holiday/Gordon or Evans? Lilliard/Matthews? CP3/Redick?

    Name me a proven playoff guy on the team. It's not like we have a standout weak position or a weak bench. Our team right now looks like those 2nd round, get to the Eastern Conference Finals if we're lucky and get a good matchup, the hawks three years ago type team

    Leave a comment:


  • NoPropsneeded
    replied
    mountio wrote: View Post
    Afflalo is definitely better than DD - its not even debatable. Im not sure why you are even entertaining this guy in this argument.

    Now, as to whether we should make the trade if it was ever proposed due to chemistry issues, having DD locked up for another year (even if its at more money), DD being younger .. those are all legit arguments.

    But with AA at 21.4 ppg on 48% shooting (44% from 3) with a 19.2 PER vs DD at 19.7 PPG on 42% shooting (30% from 3) with a 16.3 PER, AA is clearly superior.

    Throw in that AA plays on a shittier team and thus is asked to carry more of a load and has less help than DD, and things sway even more in AA's favour.

    I get that we like our own players ... but lets be objective here.
    He's not that much better at all. He's shooting 44% from 3 and he's averaging 1 point higher than DeRozan. I still take DeRozan over Afflalo long term.
    DeRozan has improved every year and he's only slightly worse than Afflalo while being 4 years younger

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  • mountio
    replied
    TSF wrote: View Post
    I'm strongly against moving DD for Afflalo- And i'm a fan of both players.

    A) We're not at the point where we're one veteran piece away. You'll notice the teams that go for that "one piece" successfully have a core that hit the playoffs, or came close enough with a noticeable flaw, that it was reasonable. Portland was close with several issues- No real 7-foot rim protector, and a completely terrible bench. They addressed those two issues in the off-season and found success. Another? Indiana, who needed a bench but still had a great run last year. We don't have that yet, and we don't know how this year will finish.

    B) Afflalo doesn't move the needle enough. Is he a good player? Yes. Was he better then Demar last year? No. Is it reasonable to question if this is a hot streak, since players don't usually hit another gear and sustain it for the rest of their career? Yes.

    C) If we trade for Afflalo, we're losing asset value. Afflalo is a average player historically, who is above leage-average PER this season for the very first time. He's also had less Defensive Win Shares then Demar the last three seasons, and he's peaking. This season could be what Afflalo is for the rest of the career, or he could end up worse. Demar has shown steady improvement in the league, hasn't hit his peak, was better then Arron last year, and is younger. Even if they gave us a straight Demar for Arron (which I'm not sure they'd do) it'd still be a net negative.

    D) Chemistry. Demar and Amir have been the two constants on the team. They're both hard-working players, hustle guys, who by all accounts love playing in Toronto. We don't know what the team will look like without either of them, but i'm willing to bet we're going to miss the chemistry the team is having right now if we trade Demar.

    In Conclusion: Arron is a good player, but he's not good enough to give up an asset like Demar when we don't really qualify for one piece away status. If you're going to deal your best assets, when they're at a very high value, you deal them for someone who kicks that needle up. You look for stars, or superstars, who aren't happy. You look for really good young players who are available. You look for someone who really, really likes Demar and gives up a young asset and a first for him. You don't trade one of your best assets for an older, less valuable asset who is not going to help you win a championship
    A very reasonable post on the issue. The one thing I would say about "hot streak" is that while AA was worse (quite bad actually) from 3 last year .. he was still better than DD. And, hes had a couple years where he shot 42-43% from three before. DD has never sniffed that. So - the one thing I think is clear is that AA is a better long range shooter ... and while he may have picked up his overall game, the shooting has always been there.

    Im also not sure on the "asset" point. I would argue that his current stats (much better than DD) plus his more reasonable contract make him more of an "asset" than DD is (in terms of trade asset).

    The rest of your stuff makes sense to me though

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  • TSF
    replied
    I'm strongly against moving DD for Afflalo- And i'm a fan of both players.

    A) We're not at the point where we're one veteran piece away. You'll notice the teams that go for that "one piece" successfully have a core that hit the playoffs, or came close enough with a noticeable flaw, that it was reasonable. Portland was close with several issues- No real 7-foot rim protector, and a completely terrible bench. They addressed those two issues in the off-season and found success. Another? Indiana, who needed a bench but still had a great run last year. We don't have that yet, and we don't know how this year will finish.

    B) Afflalo doesn't move the needle enough. Is he a good player? Yes. Was he better then Demar last year? No. Is it reasonable to question if this is a hot streak, since players don't usually hit another gear and sustain it for the rest of their career? Yes.

    C) If we trade for Afflalo, we're losing asset value. Afflalo is a average player historically, who is above leage-average PER this season for the very first time. He's also had less Defensive Win Shares then Demar the last three seasons, and he's peaking. This season could be what Afflalo is for the rest of the career, or he could end up worse. Demar has shown steady improvement in the league, hasn't hit his peak, was better then Arron last year, and is younger. Even if they gave us a straight Demar for Arron (which I'm not sure they'd do) it'd still be a net negative.

    D) Chemistry. Demar and Amir have been the two constants on the team. They're both hard-working players, hustle guys, who by all accounts love playing in Toronto. We don't know what the team will look like without either of them, but i'm willing to bet we're going to miss the chemistry the team is having right now if we trade Demar.

    In Conclusion: Arron is a good player, but he's not good enough to give up an asset like Demar when we don't really qualify for one piece away status. If you're going to deal your best assets, when they're at a very high value, you deal them for someone who kicks that needle up. You look for stars, or superstars, who aren't happy. You look for really good young players who are available. You look for someone who really, really likes Demar and gives up a young asset and a first for him. You don't trade one of your best assets for an older, less valuable asset who is not going to help you win a championship

    Leave a comment:


  • mountio
    replied
    MangoKid wrote: View Post
    I'm gonna start off by saying that personal attacks will not be tolerated. Consider it a warning. One more like that and it will result in a ban from the site.

    Secondly, I'm pretty sick of doing these Afflalo v. Demar comparisons. I realize that this is a Raptors supporter board, but I'm going to be an objective poster.
    A lot of you that are bashing Afflalo have no clue as to how solid of a player he is. And it's a shame. You bash him because he's 28, you bash him because he plays for the Magic, and that's just wrong. He's a smart, savvy player. I'd go as far as to say that he's an older, poorer version of James Harden.

    Never once did I bash DeRozan, but some of you took it as a personal crusade to "pump his tires", singing his virtues as though I have never seen a Raptors game in my life. Is Demar a solid player? Yes. But is he that good of a player to make the ASG? Absolutely not. I would take Lowry over him because Lowry makes much more of an impact than Demar does. At the moment, Demar is just simply a volume scorer, and doesn't affect the game in any other way. Sorry to say it but it's true. The one knock I do have about Demar is that he has all this God given athletic ability, has amazing physical attributes, but his basketball IQ is so incredibly low, it seems that he can't put everything together. You're always left wanting more, and expecting more. If he had the ball IQ to go with everything, we wouldn't be having this discussion about who is better between him and Afflalo, because Demar would be one of the best players in the game.

    Sent from my C1904 using Tapatalk
    Afflalo is definitely better than DD - its not even debatable. Im not sure why you are even entertaining this guy in this argument.

    Now, as to whether we should make the trade if it was ever proposed due to chemistry issues, having DD locked up for another year (even if its at more money), DD being younger .. those are all legit arguments.

    But with AA at 21.4 ppg on 48% shooting (44% from 3) with a 19.2 PER vs DD at 19.7 PPG on 42% shooting (30% from 3) with a 16.3 PER, AA is clearly superior.

    Throw in that AA plays on a shittier team and thus is asked to carry more of a load and has less help than DD, and things sway even more in AA's favour.

    I get that we like our own players ... but lets be objective here.

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  • RandomGuy
    replied
    Im suprised no one has put the video up here

    Leave a comment:


  • psrs1
    replied
    Mediumcore wrote: View Post
    The biggest advantage Afflalo brings is his defense which is better than DeMars, but our D is pretty good with DD right now, so I don't think a trade makes sense. Efficiency aside, DD is the better scorer which is where we need some improvement right now. If win now is the goal you keep DD and only trade him for a better scorer.
    Affalo got lit up by Kyrie Irving on Thursday.

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  • psrs1
    replied
    Nilanka wrote: View Post
    I like it in terms of maintaining a position of strength amongst rival management teams, but hate it from an impatient fan's perspective
    We should be thankful. BC leaked so much to the media everyone knew what he was up to.

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  • Pele
    replied
    Matt52 wrote: View Post
    LoL

    There is some extramarital blackmail pictures going on if that goes down.

    Masai has the NSA on the payroll

    You'd definitely think so. What a magnificent fleecing it would be.

    Leave a comment:


  • NoPropsneeded
    replied
    MangoKid wrote: View Post
    I will agree that I'm a part of this discussion as much as anyone else, but never I said that my opinion was right and everyone else's was wrong, so let's get that straight. The poster I gave a warning to got one not because he / she disagreed with my point of view, but because of a personal attack. Personal attacks have become somewhat normal around here as of late, and they will not be tolerated. We suggest that if you need a refresher on the rules here, pm me and I will send you the rules. This forum is meant to be a place to exchange ideas without any insults. Let's keep it that way.

    This will be my last point in regards to Afflalo versus DeRozan. A lot of people on here don't know about Afflalo, and understandably so, because most here only watch the Raptors and this is afterall, a Raptors forum. And as such, a lot of people are going to be pro-DeRozan. I understand that. However, people are very quick to dismiss Afflalo and how good of a player he is. All they'll say is that he's 28 and he plays on a poor Orlando team. They don't see that he's a fantastic player, he's a team player and at this moment, is a better player than DeRozan. You can't dismiss a guy simply because you've never seen him play.
    Is DeRozan a solid player? Absolutely. He's good value for his production. As a Raptors fan, I hope he improves. And I never said that DeRozan would never be as good as Afflalo. I welcome you to show me where I said that. Thanks.



    Sent from my C1904 using Tapatalk
    I'm no dismissing afflalo as a shitty player. He's a good team player, but saying DeRozan "will never be as good as him" is just stupid. He's slightly worse than him AT BEST, i can gurantee he'll be a much better player down the road. Also if he does make an ASG even this year, than there is no denying who is the better player.

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