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What the Raptors are missing? (Points Per Shot)

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  • #46
    NoPropsneeded wrote: View Post
    Yes i know. I was just pointing out that Mid range shots are a big part of the game. DeRozan isn't great at hitting them but he has improved a lot since he came into the league. We're starting to see him hit them more often than not and he's made a ton of contested ones too.
    But like was Nosike said, he isn't a number 1 option which is the main reason for him being so inefficient from that area of the floor.
    But he's actually just 0.6% above his career low of 44% on 2pt FGA.

    And on the dreaded long 2s he is actually down to 37% from nearly 42% last season.


    But we can all agree he is not a #1 scoring option, so thats good.

    Comment


    • #47
      Mr.Z wrote: View Post
      Yeah no shit, thats why they aren't doing that.
      Matt never said they should do that.
      He said they should do it if they can get an elite #1 scoring option.
      Which they don't have.
      Which is why it's not an idea right now.
      Don't play idiot like you didn't know that's what he meant just so you could call his idea crap because you're a DD homer and he is not.
      I'm not a DeRozan homer. I have never said that DeRozan is capable of being a number one option on a contender in this league. He isn't.

      Comment


      • #48
        Brandon wrote:
        Post after post from Nosike and others just inventing new, creative ways to apologize for Derozan. Derozan apologetics reaching new, dizzying heights of absurdity. Submit your applications for a phd in Derozan apologetics.
        Submit your application for a PhD in stupidity.

        Comment


        • #49
          Matt52 wrote: View Post
          In my opinion, and I know I'm back to a familiar refrain, for the Raptors to truly excel DeRozan can't be the primary scoring option. They either need to redistribute some of his shots to players like Amir, Lowry, or JV or they need to get a legit primary scoring option who can get around 1.35pps.

          Ideally I'd love to see Toronto keep DeRozan and move him to the 6th man role. Against inferior competition he could excel and become near elite in his PPS. People, including DeRozan, might scoff at that but Jason Terry, Jamal Crawford, Lamar Odom, Manu, and Harden pre-Houston all sacrificed for the greater good of the team.

          The issue of course is where do Toronto get an elite primary scorer while keeping the current core of DeRozan, Lowry, Amir, Ross, JV, Patterson, and Vasquez in tact?



          **Looking forward to this degenerating in to yet another "Matt52 hater" or "DeRozan loves Toronto!" discussion but if at all possible, please try not to go that route. I actually would like to see Toronto keep DeRozan as no one can deny the recent run is not in spite of his contributions.**
          You know who would work really well here in TO if he wasn't always injured. Danilo Gallinari. If I'm Denver I look at a trade between DD and Gallinari since they already have Chandler at the SF and Gallinari is oft injured.

          I think it makes us pretty strong offensively with him on the team. He is efficient and a pretty good team guy, but he is an injury plagued guy. Unfortunately, Gallinari's injury record makes me want to have no part of him until he can prove to be healthy.

          I don't know who else would be a good fit with our roster. Thad Youngs new three point range may make him playable at the SF, but he has played PF his whole career so I don't know if it is a good idea to start now.

          I think we go into playoffs as is (unless we regress, in which case blow it up). Then use DD to move up in the draft, get someone like Dario Saric if he is deemed worthy of the warlord Ujiri


          _________________________

          6th man stuff/bench

          I would like to have DD as a sixth man, however I think that skill can be easily found in the NBA, so I'm not really attached to DD being that guy in the future. There are a lot of guys who come into the league for their scoring and are made for sixth man roles.

          Personally, Jordan Crawford is my number 1 sixth man target. The guy can score in spurts, has deeeeep range, but can also facilitate and run the PnR, which will benefit a player like Patterson for the pick and pop. He is young and has shown tons of growth from his rookie season. Hard worker on the court as well

          Pair him with a SF who -can- be a good defender, is efficient and a great role player like Jeremy Evens and I think we can improve our bench play going forward.

          PS: I am not a Vasquez fan...too live or die. I would like to see a Patty Mills type vet at backup PG. A firecracker type that gets into people....Vasquez isn't that guy. Aaron Craft may be a good fit.

          Comment


          • #50
            OldSkoolCool wrote: View Post
            You know who would work really well here in TO if he wasn't always injured. Danilo Gallinari. If I'm Denver I look at a trade between DD and Gallinari since they already have Chandler at the SF and Gallinari is oft injured.

            I think it makes us pretty strong offensively with him on the team. He is efficient and a pretty good team guy, but he is an injury plagued guy. Unfortunately, Gallinari's injury record makes me want to have no part of him until he can prove to be healthy.

            I don't know who else would be a good fit with our roster. Thad Youngs new three point range may make him playable at the SF, but he has played PF his whole career so I don't know if it is a good idea to start now.

            I think we go into playoffs as is (unless we regress, in which case blow it up). Then use DD to move up in the draft, get someone like Dario Saric if he is deemed worthy of the warlord Ujiri


            _________________________

            6th man stuff/bench

            I would like to have DD as a sixth man, however I think that skill can be easily found in the NBA, so I'm not really attached to DD being that guy in the future. There are a lot of guys who come into the league for their scoring and are made for sixth man roles.

            Personally, Jordan Crawford is my number 1 sixth man target. The guy can score in spurts, has deeeeep range, but can also facilitate and run the PnR, which will benefit a player like Patterson for the pick and pop. He is young and has shown tons of growth from his rookie season. Hard worker on the court as well

            Pair him with a SF who -can- be a good defender, is efficient and a great role player like Jeremy Evens and I think we can improve our bench play going forward.

            PS: I am not a Vasquez fan...too live or die. I would like to see a Patty Mills type vet at backup PG. A firecracker type that gets into people....Vasquez isn't that guy. Aaron Craft may be a good fit.
            Gallo is another guy that hasn't really shown the ability to handle a number one role. He's pretty efficient with 10 shots per game, but if you're asking him to take 15 you're gonna see that dip. (see his 2011-12 playoff stats for a teaser of that). One thing I do like about Gallo is he's amazing at getting to the free throw line, almost Harden-level (better than DeRozan at it even). But yeah, also like you said he's super injury prone it seems, so kind of a moot point.

            Thanks to his improved 40% 3PT shooting, Thad has been better than DeRozan this year statistically, but again I think this is like the Afflalo situation where yeah you could make the trade, but you're not sure how much it moves the needle for your team.

            Why would we use DeRozan to trade up to draft Saric? Saric is projected anywhere from 11-20 right now, I think we might actually just be able to draft him outright with our own pick the way things are going. I don't think you package DeRozan with a pick unless you've got your eyes on a potential star somewhere in the top 8 or so.

            Mills/Crawford/Jeremy Evans/Patterson doesn't really look like a particularly good bench.

            Comment


            • #51
              In a perfect world, I'd like Derozan to be converted (via) trade for an elite 3. If not, I prefer the Portland route where all 5 players have a chance to blow it up scoring wise. If the Raps starting 5 leads the league in opp fg%, I'll be happy without a number one.

              Comment


              • #52
                OldSkoolCool wrote: View Post
                You know who would work really well here in TO if he wasn't always injured. Danilo Gallinari. If I'm Denver I look at a trade between DD and Gallinari since they already have Chandler at the SF and Gallinari is oft injured.

                I think it makes us pretty strong offensively with him on the team. He is efficient and a pretty good team guy, but he is an injury plagued guy. Unfortunately, Gallinari's injury record makes me want to have no part of him until he can prove to be healthy.

                I don't know who else would be a good fit with our roster. Thad Youngs new three point range may make him playable at the SF, but he has played PF his whole career so I don't know if it is a good idea to start now.

                I think we go into playoffs as is (unless we regress, in which case blow it up). Then use DD to move up in the draft, get someone like Dario Saric if he is deemed worthy of the warlord Ujiri


                _________________________

                6th man stuff/bench

                I would like to have DD as a sixth man, however I think that skill can be easily found in the NBA, so I'm not really attached to DD being that guy in the future. There are a lot of guys who come into the league for their scoring and are made for sixth man roles.

                Personally, Jordan Crawford is my number 1 sixth man target. The guy can score in spurts, has deeeeep range, but can also facilitate and run the PnR, which will benefit a player like Patterson for the pick and pop. He is young and has shown tons of growth from his rookie season. Hard worker on the court as well

                Pair him with a SF who -can- be a good defender, is efficient and a great role player like Jeremy Evens and I think we can improve our bench play going forward.

                PS: I am not a Vasquez fan...too live or die. I would like to see a Patty Mills type vet at backup PG. A firecracker type that gets into people....Vasquez isn't that guy. Aaron Craft may be a good fit.
                A big part of the recent success has been due to the chemistry the team is displaying.

                I was trying to cause as little disruption moving forward with the 'core' pieces currently on the roster.

                But that is likely not going to happen. I imagine the roster is going to look very different in 9 months.

                Comment


                • #53
                  Matt52 wrote: View Post
                  Bold 1: The game has evolved.... sorry. But the good old days brought back some memories: in 2002-03 Championship series between Spurs and Nets there were 183 3pt attempts in 6 games (about 27 per game); 2012-13 Championship series between Spurs and HEAT there were 298 in 7 games (about 43 attempts per game).

                  Bold 2: No, they don't. Go through the players and look at where they shoot from. I'm not breaking it down for you because you are clearly wrong but I will give one example: Harden shoots 37% of his shots within 8 feet, 11% within 8-16ft, 13% long 2s 16-24ft, and 39% from 3. DeRozan takes 27% from under 8ft, 22% are 8-16ft, 33% long 2s, and 18% are 3s. His shot distribution is hurting the potential of the team. More layups increases FT opportunities and more 3s is simple math: 33% from 3 is equal to 50% from 2.

                  Bold 3: what has DeRozan accomplished individually other than score a $38M contract?

                  Bold 4: Because he takes 18 shots per game and that is another 3.6 points. I hate to tell you but that is HUUUUUGE.

                  Bold 5: It does not appear you are up for debate. Those are some pretty close ended statements above. As for discussion topics, create your own threads. Tank vs Don't tank appears dead as long as Lowry remains. And I am not sure where you are getting DeRozan sucks, that is a far fall from he isn't a good primary scoring option.
                  I'm up for a debate. I'm just saying there's more than one way of being effective and winning other than measuring all your shots. Believe me, I hate a derozan long two as much as the next guy, but it's getting the results necessary. A lot of basketball is comfort and confidence (in fact, that's what's been the foundation of this hot streak). I just think he has more confidence from inside the arc and he hasn't fully found confidence in his 3pt range yet.

                  I'd much rather see him drive and posterize somebody than settle for j's but again, it works.

                  In terms of "look how far it's got him" I meant more like- he's in the NBA, he's a pretty good basketball player in comparison those who keep criticizing. His terrible shots fall at the right times and I'm ok with that. I can deal. I like his hustle and work ethic and I really don't think this team would be the same without him. He's the driving force in the locker room that pushes guys to actually play their hearts out for this city. He's a leader and I really don't like the idea of trading him, he's a solid player and he's only getting better. A while ago you were all over trading him, and for next to nothing. I agree, if we can get an elite scorer to help him out at the 3, this team would be so much better off. But I guess my point is *mascara running, snotty nosed* LEAVE DEROZAN ALONE!!!!!


                  Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
                  A key that opens many locks is a master key, but a lock that gets open by many keys is just a shitty lock

                  Comment


                  • #54
                    Matt52 wrote: View Post
                    bahhahaahaaha

                    Funny enough the Rudy Gay that is playing for Sacramento puts up 1.31 PPS (19.5 on 14.9 shots)

                    Rudy and Sacramento in general are a good example of chemistry and the intangibles. They currently have 3 efficient scorers in Rudy (1.31), Cousins (1.36), and Thomas (1.37) but are just 4-8 with Rudy in the lineup.
                    They are an example that defense matters. Their offense is ok.

                    Comment


                    • #55
                      BobLoblaw wrote: View Post
                      They are an example that defense matters. Their offense is ok.
                      Which is my point.

                      Raps have everything right now except that guy

                      Comment


                      • #56
                        There have been contenders without these "a lot of shot attempts + high PPS" players. Memphis last year, Indiana the year before the brawl (Jermaine and Artest were a really inefficient combo), even Indiana last year. In other words, great defensive teams. It's rare, but not impossible.

                        Either way, this team does need to keep adding talent. I don't think that simply replacing DeRozan with an Afflalo or Kevin Martin (i.e. more efficient volume scorers, but merely a borderline All Star) would push this team into elite status.

                        Now that the tank looks dead, Ujiri will have to be opportunistic and keep all options open. Some of that improvement may come from within, but he'll have to nail some picks, add a good piece via free agency, keep collecting assets, and who knows, at some point within the next 5 years some star might become available. If that star is a super scorer a la James Harden, great, and if it's a prime Ron Artest type (in terms of play style, not mentally), great too.
                        Last edited by BobLoblaw; Sun Jan 5, 2014, 11:55 PM.

                        Comment


                        • #57
                          I like how focused you guys are on the term #1 option.

                          On another thread, you will all have a group hug about how well the team shares the ball, and how great DD has been passing out of doubles, and finding open guys.... yay, playing proper basketball, no ego's, nobody looking for stats etc.




                          Then you come here and talk about #1 options.

                          Its funny to me.


                          DD is a good player, he' sin a scoring position and asked to take tough shots, and, on the squad he plays for he's the best in those scenario's.

                          A great deal of people seem to like him a lot. Just not here.

                          I personally love the guy. He has grown into a great 2 guard in front of us and he's still just 24. He is learning from these games, and the playoffs will teach him more. I think maybe some of you should think about that.

                          Comment


                          • #58
                            Craig wrote: View Post
                            I like how focused you guys are on the term #1 option.

                            On another thread, you will all have a group hug about how well the team shares the ball, and how great DD has been passing out of doubles, and finding open guys.... yay, playing proper basketball, no ego's, nobody looking for stats etc.




                            Then you come here and talk about #1 options.

                            Its funny to me.


                            DD is a good player, he' sin a scoring position and asked to take tough shots, and, on the squad he plays for he's the best in those scenario's.

                            A great deal of people seem to like him a lot. Just not here.

                            I personally love the guy. He has grown into a great 2 guard in front of us and he's still just 24. He is learning from these games, and the playoffs will teach him more. I think maybe some of you should think about that.
                            I haven't read this whole thread so I don't know what was said specifically, but, DeMar is the no.1 option on this team and he's not an efficient no.1 option compared to best teams. Nothing wrong with saying that. It doesn't negate all the things you've said.

                            Comment


                            • #59
                              Craig wrote: View Post
                              I like how focused you guys are on the term #1 option.

                              On another thread, you will all have a group hug about how well the team shares the ball, and how great DD has been passing out of doubles, and finding open guys.... yay, playing proper basketball, no ego's, nobody looking for stats etc.




                              Then you come here and talk about #1 options.

                              Its funny to me.


                              DD is a good player, he' sin a scoring position and asked to take tough shots, and, on the squad he plays for he's the best in those scenario's.

                              A great deal of people seem to like him a lot. Just not here.

                              I personally love the guy. He has grown into a great 2 guard in front of us and he's still just 24. He is learning from these games, and the playoffs will teach him more. I think maybe some of you should think about that.
                              BobLoblaw wrote: View Post
                              I haven't read this whole thread so I don't know what was said specifically, but, DeMar is the no.1 option on this team and he's not an efficient no.1 option compared to best teams. Nothing wrong with saying that. It doesn't negate all the things you've said.
                              Also saying this team needs a legit #1 option doesn't mean people want an egotistical chucker. It's entirely possible to get a #1 option who plays good team ball. It's not common, obviously, but #1 option and team player are not mutually exclusive.

                              Comment


                              • #60
                                I don't know if I agree with you guys that we need a LEGIT #1 option. What I would LOVE to see Masai do in the summer is try HARD to sign Luol Deng. This guy would bring this team to the next level. He's a proven winner, he's a team player, he's a star player. No he's not 23 years of age but he's not old neither. He does it all and I think he would fit in pretty well. Who knows, maybe those african connexions will help?

                                Valanciunas/Hansbrough/Rookie
                                Johnson/Patterson/Hayes
                                Deng/Rookie/Novak
                                DeRozan/Ross/Fields
                                Lowry/Vasquez/Rookie
                                Last edited by charlesnba23; Mon Jan 6, 2014, 12:40 AM.

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