What the Raptors are missing? (Points Per Shot)

[mcHAPPY]

I was joking lol.. thought it was clear. My bad.

Whoops.

No, my bad.

I actually don't hate DeRozan. He is just being used wrong which is classic of many of the 'faces' of the franchise over the last 7 years.

[Masai Ujiri]

Matt is not a Derozan Hater, nor does he "not like" Derozan. He just doesn't see Demar as a #1 option on a very good to elite team. I share his view, as, i think, do many people.

I want the Raptors to aspire to greatness. Think big. Demar Derozan is not, and IMO doesn't show signs of becoming, an elite scorer.

I don't think anyone who isn't delusional thinks DeRozan is an ideal #1 option on a 50 win, playoff contender type team. He's paid 9.5M for a reason. That's actually 3rd/4th banana money in the current NBA (most contenders have 4 or 5 players making about that much money or more).

It's actually refreshing that with DeRozan as the 1st option we're looking like a 45 win team. That means if we got a legitimate #1 option and bumped him to #2 I think we'd really be in business.

[Masai Ujiri]

Whoops.

No, my bad.

I actually don't hate DeRozan. He is just being used wrong which is classic of many of the 'faces' of the franchise over the last 7 years.

I have been trying to get you to admit this for over a year now. Well done.

It's good to see that you've shifted from your mantra of trading him away for expirings to accepting this fact. Hopefully we don't have to see any more threads where you try to explain how Danny Green is better than him.

[KHD]

Afflalo is not a #1 option on a contending team in this league. As you can see with Orlando right now.

I seriously have a feeling that what he's doing right now is fool's gold, it screams Mike James to me for some reason. That being said he is better than DeRozan right now, but trading DeMar or Ross for him would be foolish.

Yeah, I lean the same way, just thought I'd stir the pot a bit haha.

I don't know how to place Afflalo's season. The efficiency doesn't scream Mike James, but the Magic aren't very good.

Based on the age difference between him and Ross / Derozan, I don't think I'd go for a trade involving him, either.

[KazanTheMan]

Whoops.

No, my bad.

I actually don't hate DeRozan. He is just being used wrong which is classic of many of the 'faces' of the franchise over the last 7 years.

Yeah, he definitely is. I agree with your post on how he needs to spread the ball around more. Because if they want to be successful, teamwork will be key, since there's no star on the team.

[Masai Ujiri]

Btw for people wondering why I said Matt52 dislikes DeRozan, that is because this thread is a huge paradigm shift for him. It's a far cry from some of his previous posts like this:

My BOOM showed you're a fan of mediocrity. You have done nothing to show DeRozan is not what I say: an average at best SG who settles for long 2s and is mediocre on defense. You are striving for a below average player to become average to a little above while making 2x the average player and over 3x the median. You are the classic Raptor fan which I myself was for many years.

Absolutely ridiculous.

[octothorp]

A volume scorer with a high PPS would be great, but those guys are so hard to come by. I hate looking at DeRozan's shot charts, and lately they're even uglier than usual. 56% of his shots are 2s outside the paint over the last month. These are the shots that are always there because the opposition is cutting down the higher-percentage shots. I'm okay with DeRozan's volume. I'm less okay with his long 2s being the go-to option down the stretch of close games.

You look at the end of the Indiana game: Indiana really ratcheted up the defensive intensity and took away a lot of the things that had been working for Toronto, and what was left was long, contested 2s. Despite the outcome, Indiana has to be okay with the choices they made on defense, because more often than not, if you can force a team to take long, contested 2s, you've given yourself the best chance to win. DeRozan did a stellar job of hitting those.

This is going to sound really nitpicky, but as happy as I am that we won that game, I would have preferred us to win by making high percentage plays... and again, Indiana gets credit for shutting those down. But if you want to change up the offense, that's what you need to focus on: finding ways to make higher-percentage plays down the stretch against strong defensive teams. It doesn't necessarily mean bringing in a star that can create his own shot; rather, it could be equally effective to put a player in that lineup who can increase their ability to create the high-percentage looks (corner 3s and pick-and-rolls, for example), for the players already in the finishing lineup.

[Masai Ujiri]

A volume scorer with a high PPS would be great, but those guys are so hard to come by. I hate looking at DeRozan's shot charts, and lately they're even uglier than usual. 56% of his shots are 2s outside the paint over the last month. These are the shots that are always there because the opposition is cutting down the higher-percentage shots. I'm okay with DeRozan's volume. I'm less okay with his long 2s being the go-to option down the stretch of close games.

You look at the end of the Indiana game: Indiana really ratcheted up the defensive intensity and took away a lot of the things that had been working for Toronto, and what was left was long, contested 2s. Despite the outcome, Indiana has to be okay with the choices they made on defense, because more often than not, if you can force a team to take long, contested 2s, you've given yourself the best chance to win. DeRozan did a stellar job of hitting those.

This is going to sound really nitpicky, but as happy as I am that we won that game, I would have preferred us to win by making high percentage plays... and again, Indiana gets credit for shutting those down. But if you want to change up the offense, that's what you need to focus on: finding ways to make higher-percentage plays down the stretch against strong defensive teams. It doesn't necessarily mean bringing in a star that can create his own shot; rather, it could be equally effective to put a player in that lineup who can increase their ability to create the high-percentage looks (corner 3s and pick-and-rolls, for example), for the players already in the finishing lineup.

Newsflash, this is how games are won in the playoffs down the stretch. In the mid-range.

High efficiency basketball is great, but it's also what teams try to stop first. If you don't have players who can consistently get theirs with the in between game in the playoffs, you're not going to go far. It's a big part of the reason why Miami was able to beat Indiana, because the big 3 were able to make those plays down the stretch, and well Paul George wasn't.

Mid-range is a necessary evil when it comes to winning championships.

That being said, DD takes about 3-5 long 2s every game that he wouldn't feel the need to, nor have to take if the Raptors had a legitimate #1 option and he was the secondary guy.

[p00ka]

bahhahaahaaha

Funny enough the Rudy Gay that is playing for Sacramento puts up 1.31 PPS (19.5 on 14.9 shots)

Rudy and Sacramento in general are a good example of chemistry and the intangibles. They currently have 3 efficient scorers in Rudy (1.31), Cousins (1.36), and Thomas (1.37) but are just 4-8 with Rudy in the lineup.

Bingo! What does that say about the relevance of this individual PPS stat? It's a TEAM game, at BOTH sides of the court. Kings at 4-8, Raps at 10-3. hmmmm

[e_wheazhy_]

When did basketball become about stats and efficiency? What about the good old days when it was just bouncing a ball and putting it in the peach basket?

Basketball is about scoring points, and sure, he may take a lot of stupid long twos, but almost every #1 scoring option does. This kid works his ass of and plays the style of basketball he was taught. Look how far it's got him. This team is winning, it's going well and we're whining because he averages .20 points per shot less than other players? Who gives a shit? At the end of the day, it gets results.

It's cool to play arm chair statistician, but the kid is one of the top players in his position in the NBA, the best league in the world! He's doing something right. Normally I'm all for debate, etc. etc. but this site is now becoming so "tank!" "Don't tank" "derozan sucks!" Chill out and watch these guys win.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Masai Ujiri]

When did basketball become about stats and efficiency? What about the good old days when it was just bouncing a ball and putting it in the peach basket?

Basketball is about scoring points, and sure, he may take a lot of stupid long twos, but almost every #1 scoring option does. This kid works his ass of and plays the style of basketball he was taught. Look how far it's got him. This team is winning, it's going well and we're whining because he averages .20 points per shot less than other players? Who gives a shit? At the end of the day, it gets results.

It's cool to play arm chair statistician, but the kid is one of the top players in his position in the NBA, the best league in the world! He's doing something right. Normally I'm all for debate, etc. etc. but this site is now becoming so "tank!" "Don't tank" "derozan sucks!" Chill out and watch these guys win.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

It's always been, but the problem is people consistently use stats without context. That's how you get guys like Matt52 calling DeRozan a "below-average player"

[p00ka]

Btw for people wondering why I said Matt52 dislikes DeRozan, that is because this thread is a huge paradigm shift for him. It's a far cry from some of his previous posts like this:



Absolutely ridiculous.

Paradigm shift??? LOL. More manipulation of a stat to continue promoting shoot for a high draft pick, no matter how veiled it is.

[p00ka]

Good lord! I hope some others see through these veiled comments for what they are. Probably not, but too tired to be the too nasty one this day. *shrug*

What I will say is:

1. If just about anyone else put this out, I'd think it's a naive interpretation of the relevance of this stat. In this case, considering what has been pushed for so long, I call it desperate manipulation of a stat, to support the veiled, but on-going tank narrative/agenda.
"The issue of course is where do Toronto get an elite primary scorer"------translates to----> only place in is the draft----- translates to------> we need a very high pick in this upcoming draft. Same old, same old, dressed a little differently. The team could use an elite scorer. Is that some revelation to anybody?

2. I assume these are season long stats. How useful are these when talking about the Raps? EVERYTHING has changed so much over the last 13 games, that "analyzing" anything based on individual stats for the entire season, to conclude anything about team needs, is mind boggling to me, but whatever.

3. It's a TEAM game, so these individual player stats, especially this PPS, looked at in a vacuum, don't mean a damn thing to what a team needs. BUT, why not include some other players/teams to illustrate the relevance of this manipulation of a stat?
- Sacramento has 2 players (Cousins at 1.36, Thomas at 1.37) with even higher PPS than half the players used in this "analysis", yet what's it doing for that team? They have the 3rd worst record in the league, and were dumb enough to give us an entire bench for Rudy. The way they're playing now, which team would kick the others' ass in a series? The team with 2 high PPS, high volume guys, or the team with none? I know which team my $$$ would be on. You?
- T-Wolves also have 2 guys quite high (Love, Pekovic), and higher than anybody on the Spurs, Mavs, GSW, yet they're struggling to get to .500. Do you want the Spurs individual PPSs or the T-Wolves'?
4. It's a TEAM game,,,,, involving play at BOTH ends of the court. Offensive stats alone tell you nothing, nor do defensive stats alone, never mind individual stats. There are 5 players on the court, and what matters is how the TEAM performs over all, and the most important stat of all: Wins/Losses. It doesn't matter how efficient you are as an individual, unless the team is, and unless it produces wins.

[mcHAPPY]

When did basketball become about stats and efficiency? What about the good old days when it was just bouncing a ball and putting it in the peach basket?

Basketball is about scoring points, and sure, he may take a lot of stupid long twos, but almost every #1 scoring option does. This kid works his ass of and plays the style of basketball he was taught. Look how far it's got him. This team is winning, it's going well and we're whining because he averages .20 points per shot less than other players? Who gives a shit? At the end of the day, it gets results.

It's cool to play arm chair statistician, but the kid is one of the top players in his position in the NBA, the best league in the world! He's doing something right. Normally I'm all for debate, etc. etc. but this site is now becoming so "tank!" "Don't tank" "derozan sucks!" Chill out and watch these guys win.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Bold 1: The game has evolved.... sorry. But the good old days brought back some memories: in 2002-03 Championship series between Spurs and Nets there were 183 3pt attempts in 6 games (about 27 per game); 2012-13 Championship series between Spurs and HEAT there were 298 in 7 games (about 43 attempts per game).

Bold 2: No, they don't. Go through the players and look at where they shoot from. I'm not breaking it down for you because you are clearly wrong but I will give one example: Harden shoots 37% of his shots within 8 feet, 11% within 8-16ft, 13% long 2s 16-24ft, and 39% from 3. DeRozan takes 27% from under 8ft, 22% are 8-16ft, 33% long 2s, and 18% are 3s. His shot distribution is hurting the potential of the team. More layups increases FT opportunities and more 3s is simple math: 33% from 3 is equal to 50% from 2.

Bold 3: what has DeRozan accomplished individually other than score a $38M contract?

Bold 4: Because he takes 18 shots per game and that is another 3.6 points. I hate to tell you but that is HUUUUUGE.

Bold 5: It does not appear you are up for debate. Those are some pretty close ended statements above. As for discussion topics, create your own threads. Tank vs Don't tank appears dead as long as Lowry remains. And I am not sure where you are getting DeRozan sucks, that is a far fall from he isn't a good primary scoring option.

[iblastoff]

Bingo! What does that say about the relevance of this individual PPS stat? It's a TEAM game, at BOTH sides of the court. Kings at 4-8, Raps at 10-3. hmmmm

thats because sacramento have absolutely NO defense. they are literally near the bottom on every single defense stat you can think of. they have good scorers. cousins is obviously a monster in scoring. but they don't defend whatsoever. if you watched the last sacramento vs bobcats game, you could see that bobcats were literally scoring at will.

the intangibles can't be ignored, but to dismiss measurable tangibles that could help with a team and/or individual players game is stupid.