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  • #91
    Hoopshype is awful. Basketball-reference is decent. Shamsports is the best, although it doesn't update very often, so it is not up to date. I keep my own salary figures based on Shamsports.
    twitter.com/dhackett1565

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    • #92
      DanH wrote: View Post
      Hoopshype is awful. Basketball-reference is decent. Shamsports is the best, although it doesn't update very often, so it is not up to date. I keep my own salary figures based on Shamsports.
      Shamsports is my go to site for salary information as well.

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      • #93
        Screw Tanking

        huskies2raps wrote: View Post
        http://www.grantland.com/blog/the-tr...o-to-the-wheel

        Ever since reading Zach Lowe's article that goes over "The Wheel" I've been convinced that this would be the best way to eliminate rewarding teams for losing. Yes, the counter arguments of "If Milwaukee had the 1st pick next year and LA the next, the college player would wait an extra year etc." but at the end of the day, this method would give teams a fair shot at top level talent every few years and eliminate the need to reward bad teams.

        We will see what Silver has in store for the NBA's next generation, but from what I hear he is very much an "outside the box" type thinker. Imagine going into every NBA season with teams having ZERO incentive to losing......
        No it wouldn't, for the exact same reason you just stated. This would be completely ridiculous and extremely easy to take advantage of. I thought you were going to refute the statement but you just stated it.

        Also, lets say a team like Miami has a "big three" championship team and is awarded the 1st pick. Is it fair that they can draft a wiggins/Exum/smart/embiid to pair with bosh James and wade? Hell no.

        I think we should just leave things the way they are. The lose now approach taken by many can actually be a pretty good strategy. I remember not too long ago, Atlanta had 11 wins and was the laughingstock of the league. Now they're able to be consistent in playoff talks in the east.

        Indiana, iirc, was a team that a couple of years ago I counted as a win for the raptors on the calendar. Now they've built a solid championship contender but had to endure a couple of years of losing. Managers need to do things right. Look at Cleveland, 2 top 5 picks in 2011, #4 in 2012 and the 1st overall in 2013. They lost a lot. And it looks like they'll continue to do so. Because their management is terrible.

        The current way is one of the fairest ways to do it. If we left it up to the players and their agents, 5/6 teams would be incredibly strong and the rest would dwindle. Teams need to be rewarded, in a sense, for being bad. They're missing out on extra revenue from the playoffs, extra exposure, lack of free agent desire, etc.

        Why shouldn't the worst team get the best player? They're surely the ones who need him the most. People are crying now because people are taking advantage of the system and "losing on purpose". Boo hoo. People are always going to exploit the systems they're given, because people are a-holes and when you're a manager of a team like Milwaukee who can't attract free agents as easily as NY, and depends on playoff revenue to actually breathe financially, you're paid big bucks to win. That's the way they've found to do so, and kudos to them. It has to be deftly executed though.


        Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
        A key that opens many locks is a master key, but a lock that gets open by many keys is just a shitty lock

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        • #94
          ebrian wrote: View Post
          Looks like I've joined the thread a bit late here but I'll add my 2 cents.

          I've been conflicted about cheering for our team. I am happy that we are playing well compared to the last 4-5 years. I'm excited about making the playoffs and going to a playoff game.. it's been years and the experience/atmosphere is phenomenal. But I can't help but feel sorry for Masai for being in a difficult position of a team that is possibly overachieving at the worst possible time.. much like we experienced a 7-8 years ago with a different GM. I mean, unless you really believed that Garbajosa had such a positive effect on that team, the reality is that was not a proper 47-win team. That's not to say BC made all the right moves, but he seemed to believe in those 47 wins and that resulted in 2-3 years of believing in it, and then a few more years of trying to get back when it was never really there.

          I don't think I have to point out that the Eastern Conference is even more of a joke than it has ever been. If past 5-8 years are any indication, a 0.500 record normally nets you 2nd in the Atlantic or as low as 4th, and certainly not a top 3-4 record in the East.

          I don't think Masai will fall into the same trap as BC, but it still "feels" like a wasted opportunity.

          I'm not as creative when it comes to thinking up possible trades (nor do I see a point in doing it), but I don't see a lot of ways to improve the team given that we are fairly cash-strapped for another season after this, plus with no high picks coming up, we have to kind of rely on Ross and JV to get better. But I don't see how these two guys will improve to the point that we become contenders. Either way, I can imagine Masai walking down the halls and having people giving him high-fives and saying "First place, baby!" and smiling and telling him what a great job he's doing and meanwhile in his heart he's in complete turmoil. So while we have a great chance to duplicate Atlanta's past recent success, I feel that Masai (and Leiweke) were aiming a bit higher.

          And that's really where my worries and my conflict on the season are stemmed from. I have a good friend of mine who has been a lifetime Bulls fan, and he always has some sort of complaint about his team. And I'm just like "You know what.. shut up. You had Michael Jordan. That is all.". I personally am fine with Atlanta's last 5 years. I just think that there was an opportunity this season to become more than that and we potentially missed out on it.
          I'll add my two cents as well....

          Sometimes i wonder if we have the most pessimistic fans in the NBA. I just don't understand why anyone would feel conflicted about cheering for their team. You are supposed to cheer for your team! Why worry about mediocrity/championships/drafts when we have no control over that stuff??

          I trust that Masai knows more about the game/league/players than most of us combined. Why not trust that he will make the right decisions when they need to be made? Did anyone think we would get rid of Bargnani for the 3 draft picks, a role player and flexibility? Did anyone think that we would get rid of Rudy and his horrible contract for a complete bench and flexibility?

          The East sucks.....it has for a while now. However, i think it looks worse now than it will at the end of the year.

          Personally, I think there are A LOT of ways to improve our team moving forward. We still have a first round draft pick in 2014 (supposedly one of the deepest draft to come along in a while). We have a first round pick in 2015 and 2 first round picks in 2016. We have a 21 year old Center who looks legit. We have Demar who's only 24 and may be an all-star this year. We have Ross who's becoming a lock down type of defender before our eyes. I don't understand why posters get worried about the future when we don't even know the ceiling of our 3 young players.

          A high lottery pick gives you a better chance for an awesome player - I GET IT. I presume we all get that. However, this has always been the case (ever since the lottery). Why worry and break up a top 4 seed in the east for a CHANCE at a star/bust/mediocre player?

          I don't know why some of us feel that we have to worry about the future. We have no control over that and we're not paid to worry about it. It's fun to discuss what might be and what could be, but as fans we should support what we're seeing from this team.

          My advice is to enjoy the team this season and let Masai worry about the future......just my two cents.

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          • #95
            special1 wrote: View Post
            I trust that Masai knows more about the game/league/players than most of us combined. Why not trust that he will make the right decisions when they need to be made?
            You could say this about every GM in the league, but that isn't reason to blindly trust that everything will work out for the best. It's good to question things.

            And after all the discussion about tanking, I don't understand how you fail to understand why a Raptors fan would feel conflicted about cheering for wins this year.

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            • #96
              My new year's resolution was to post more, so here it goes!!

              I think Adam Silver should get rid of divisions, and consider the CFL style conference switch over at the end of the season. So if there are 4 teams in the west that didnt make the playoffs but are better than seeds 5-8 in the east: BOOM they are now seeds 5-8. With that happening, more east teams would get lottery picks instead of already quite talented west teams continuing to get them.

              I would also lower the lottery odds SLIGHTLY to make it closer to even if you missed the playoffs. I still think you need the bad teams to get better through the draft. The wheel doesn't really address this. Could you imagine being a fan of a BRUTAL team and knowing you don't have the number 1 pick coming for like 20 more years. Ugh

              Would this fix tanking, not entirely no. I think it would help though. As for the actually topic of the thread: Tanking is tough now but I agree with other posters than Lowry is the key. Could the Raps still get bad enough to get a top 3 pick? Probably not even if Lowry is traded today. Could they decide he'll walk for nothing and trade him for a first rounder? Probably. Could they then package their pick, the Lowry pick, and a young player to get into the top 5-7? Maybe. MU has a lot of option, and I look forward to seeing which he takes!

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              • #97
                Is it possible that we already have our high draft pick/future elite player/guy to build around in JV?

                Would it be smart to trade JV for the first overall pick this year? 3rd overall? 5th overall? Who makes this trade?

                My view is that JV will likely improve tons more. I don't know what his ceiling is but I think he has a non-zero chance of becoming the top 10 NBA player you need to win a title and therefore there is no need to tank to "get our guy".

                The problem with tanking is that not only is it not guaranteed to work (others are trying too) but even if you draft the guy you want, no guarantee he will stick around long enough to build that contender around him. You suck for a few years and then the guy leaves town. We've seen this before with Carter, McGrady and Bosh.

                In the last 20 years, only 2 players were drafted in the top 5 that went on to win a title with the team that drafted them. The number will go up if KD and Westie title with OCK but for now that's where we're at so perhaps there are other ways to go?

                JV seems like the kind of down to earth guy that might not have a huge desire to play in a big market city. If we build around him maybe he will stay. To me, this looks to be the best chance of building a contender. If in a year or two it becomes clear that he won't turn out to be this elite player, we can always tear it apart then. I see no reason to give up on this course of action though.

                Re. Lowry - I think he could be elite for several years to come. No guarantee of course, but he doesn't strike me as the kind of guy that is going to stop playing when he signs his new deal. I make signing him my first priority.

                Cheers!

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                • #98
                  special1 wrote: View Post
                  A high lottery pick gives you a better chance for an awesome player - I GET IT. I presume we all get that. However, this has always been the case (ever since the lottery). Why worry and break up a top 4 seed in the east for a CHANCE at a star/bust/mediocre player?

                  I don't know why some of us feel that we have to worry about the future. We have no control over that and we're not paid to worry about it. It's fun to discuss what might be and what could be, but as fans we should support what we're seeing from this team.
                  1st bold

                  I think the whole point of framing the Raptors' success this season and their current position in the standings, within the historically awful EC, is to question the sustainability of such success. TL/MU talk about championships and building a legitimate perennial contender; winning the Atlantic division and capturing the 3rd/4th seed this season does not automatically equate to that goal becoming a reality.

                  Many EC teams are tanking and/or have injuries and/or have underachieved and/or are stockpiling draft picks and/or are stockpiling young prospects with high ceilings.

                  MU has said he is taking a "wait and see" approach this season and doesn't want to be stuck in "no man's land". My personal feeling is that MU is smart enough to take even winning the division this season with a grain of salt, when it comes to forecasting future success for this roster.

                  There's absolutely room for some players on the roster to improve and a 1st round pick will be added to the mix. However, to keep this core intact, including the re-signing of Lowry, this team would once again be capped out.

                  Obviously the only opinion that matters if MU's. Obviously none of us can predict the future. However, a lot of posters are of the opinion that in a typical year, this current roster has a ceiling of sneaking into the playoffs; that's good, but not exactly in-line with TL's talk of building a perennial contender for NBA championships. I think that's why some posters still promote rebuilding/retooling, without putting too much emphasis on a 3rd/4th place finish in the EC this season.


                  2nd bold

                  A lot of posters like putting on their GM hats, when discussing the Raptors. That's the nature of sports. Much like TL, we want the Raptors to be legit title contenders every year, which take planning. That's why we discuss NCAA players, or why we discuss trade ideas, or why we discuss anything beyond the games that have already been played. I'm not sure how you can follow a team without thinking about the future, whether it's the next game, the next season, who should be drafted, who should be traded, who should be re-signed, etc...

                  Comment


                  • #99
                    CalgaryRapsFan wrote: View Post
                    1st bold

                    I think the whole point of framing the Raptors' success this season and their current position in the standings, within the historically awful EC, is to question the sustainability of such success. TL/MU talk about championships and building a legitimate perennial contender; winning the Atlantic division and capturing the 3rd/4th seed this season does not automatically equate to that goal becoming a reality.

                    Many EC teams are tanking and/or have injuries and/or have underachieved and/or are stockpiling draft picks and/or are stockpiling young prospects with high ceilings.

                    MU has said he is taking a "wait and see" approach this season and doesn't want to be stuck in "no man's land". My personal feeling is that MU is smart enough to take even winning the division this season with a grain of salt, when it comes to forecasting future success for this roster.

                    There's absolutely room for some players on the roster to improve and a 1st round pick will be added to the mix. However, to keep this core intact, including the re-signing of Lowry, this team would once again be capped out.

                    Obviously the only opinion that matters if MU's. Obviously none of us can predict the future. However, a lot of posters are of the opinion that in a typical year, this current roster has a ceiling of sneaking into the playoffs; that's good, but not exactly in-line with TL's talk of building a perennial contender for NBA championships. I think that's why some posters still promote rebuilding/retooling, without putting too much emphasis on a 3rd/4th place finish in the EC this season.


                    2nd bold

                    A lot of posters like putting on their GM hats, when discussing the Raptors. That's the nature of sports. Much like TL, we want the Raptors to be legit title contenders every year, which take planning. That's why we discuss NCAA players, or why we discuss trade ideas, or why we discuss anything beyond the games that have already been played. I'm not sure how you can follow a team without thinking about the future, whether it's the next game, the next season, who should be drafted, who should be traded, who should be re-signed, etc...
                    Ist Bold

                    Obviously, winning the Atlantic doesn't automatically make us perennial contenders, but neither does tanking. You can say this and that about its a better chance for some star (if we tank), but nothing is for sure. I don't want to go back into another tanking debate because it's clear (TO ME) that we're not tanking. Pro-tankers can believe whatever they want.....I've already dropped the mic when it comes to the tanking debate. All i have to say is that you need to start somewhere! You want to start a winning culture?....you want to build a perennial contender? Now is the best time to start. We have some pretty good young pieces. The current group of players play with heart, tough defence, and they dont give up until the buzzer (regardless of the competition).

                    2nd Bold

                    There is a difference between thinking about the future and worrying about it.

                    In the summer, what were we told? We're supposed to be a borderline playoff team.....7-8 spot in the East is the best case scenario remember?? Blow it up they said! Except, anything is possible in basketball. All it takes is one injury to an important piece and you can kiss the championship goodbye.

                    I'm comfortable knowing that i cannot predict the future because i don't even know what i'm having for dinner tonight. It's fun to come on here, debate and listen to knowledgeable fans who know just as much or more than i do. Trust me, I hear your arguments and sometimes i still disagree. I'm sure you feel the same way about my stances. Regardless, my advice remains unchanged.....enjoy the games and let Masai worry about the future.
                    Last edited by special1; Fri Jan 10th, 2014, 04:27 PM.

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                    • special1 wrote: View Post
                      Regardless, my advice remains unchanged.....enjoy the games and let Masai worry about the future.
                      This is the type of statement that drives me crazy and irks me about the high-horse some anti-tankers seem to be on during this win streak.


                      Would I have preferred MU to start a rebuild in the offseason before the season started, likely resulting in a tank this season?

                      Yes.


                      Am I upset he didn't?

                      No. I had an opinion about a team-building strategy, but I hardly take it personally. Besides, I'm a fan and he's the GM.


                      Do I want the team to tank now or think they will?

                      No, because tanking was never a proposed strategy; it was a potential/expected residual impact of a rebuild that started ahead of this season. MU could still decide to rebuild, whether it's this season or next offseason. Tanking is just a side-benefit that would have happened if he had gone the rebuilding route before this season started.


                      Did I ever say/think/feel/believe that there was only one right/good way to approach long-term team-building?

                      No. I had a preferred approach entering this season. Personally, I view the trading away of Gay and the rumored near trade of Lowry as evidence that at some point MU was attempting an early in-season rebuild/retool, which very well could have resulted in tanking this season. We'll never know the truth about MU's intentions or what the net result would have been, but to say MU was 100% leaning one way or the other, is foolish (and folks on both sides have attempted to do just that).


                      Is there a single Raptors game this season that I haven't enjoyed?

                      No. I'm a fan. MU decided not to implement the team-building strategy (or at least not on the same schedule) that I was hoping for, but that doesn't cause me to enjoy the games any less. Would any anti-tanker enjoy Raptors games any less if the team had crumbled after the Gay trade, or if the rumored Lowry trade had also gone down? I doubt it, because we're all still fans, whether the team follows our ideas or not, whether they play our favourite player or trades him away. We're Raptors fans and implying that a certain segment no longer enjoys the team is an immature attempt to one-up somebody you disagree with.


                      Will I continue thinking/talking about and discussing/debating the future of this franchise?

                      Of course. That comes with being a fan.
                      Last edited by CalgaryRapsFan; Fri Jan 10th, 2014, 04:49 PM.

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                      • CalgaryRapsFan wrote: View Post
                        This is the type of statement that drives me crazy and irks me about the high-horse some anti-tankers seem to be on during this win streak.


                        Would I have preferred MU to start a rebuild in the offseason before the season started, likely resulting in a tank this season?

                        Yes.


                        Am I upset he didn't?

                        No. I had an opinion about a team-building strategy, but I hardly take it personally. Besides, I'm a fan and he's the GM.


                        Do I want the team to tank now or think they will?

                        No, because tanking was never a proposed strategy; it was a potential/expected residual impact of a rebuild that started ahead of this season. MU could still decide to rebuild, whether it's this season or next offseason. Tanking is just a side-benefit that would have happened if he had gone the rebuilding route before this season started.


                        Did I ever say/think/feel/believe that there was only one right/good way to approach long-term team-building?

                        No. I had a preferred approach entering this season. Personally, I view the trading away of Gay and the rumored near trade of Lowry as evidence that at some point MU was attempting an early in-season rebuild/retool, which very well could have resulted in tanking this season. We'll never know the truth about MU's intentions or what the net result would have been, but to say MU was 100% leaning one way or the other, is foolish (and folks on both sides have attempted to do just that).


                        Is there a single Raptors game this season that I haven't enjoyed?

                        No. I'm a fan. MU decided not to implement the team-building strategy (or at least not on the same schedule) that I was hoping for, but that doesn't cause me to enjoy the games any less. Would any anti-tanker enjoy Raptors games any less if the team had crumbled after the Gay trade, or if the rumored Lowry trade had also gone down? I doubt it, because we're all still fans, whether the team follows our ideas or not, whether they play our favourite player or trades him away. We're Raptors fans and implying that a certain segment no longer enjoys the team is an immature attempt to one-up somebody you disagree with.


                        Will I continue thinking/talking about and discussing/debating the future of this franchise?

                        Of course. That comes with being a fan.
                        LOL - Wow. Someone says to enjoy the games and let the GM worry about the future and that drives you crazy??

                        You know what drives me crazy? When a pro-tanking "know-it-all" tells me that my team sucks and that the season is a complete waste and that we will be irrelevant for years to come (welcome to mediocrity).....all BEFORE we played one game in 2013-2014!

                        I've learnt to accept that some people are just shit talkers.......Shall we call it even?

                        I know you don't speak for pro-tankers .....but tanking was actually a strategy that was proposed around these parts for months. You being a mod should know this. Also, to call yourself a pro-tanker while saying it was never a strategy of yours, "just a potential/expected residual impact" sounds a little iffy to me. If I didn't see your silly avatar, i'd think you were someone else. It's almost like you went to the Bryan Colangelo school of double talk... just wow. Dude, your the tank commander. You were one of the firsts to embrace the tank.....or so i thought.

                        Regardless, who really cares right? I never really got along with pro-tankers on here because i was dismissed as "drinking the kool-aid" or niave.

                        I find it funny that some pro-tankers such as yourself are getting upset over my advice. Is it my fault Masai made the changes MANY of us anti-tankers were looking for? He got rid of Bargs, Gay and sure'd up the bench. We gained more flexibility and don't have Rudy's 19 million dollar option hanging over our heads. This team appears to be playing a lot better. Why does this bother you so much?? Why are we still talking about tanking? Dude, no need to be bitter. Sometimes things don't go the way that you wanted. Such is life!

                        Screw tanking!
                        Last edited by special1; Fri Jan 10th, 2014, 05:42 PM.

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                        • special1 wrote: View Post
                          LOL - Wow. Someone says to enjoy the games and let the GM worry about the future and that drives you crazy??

                          You know what drives me crazy? When a pro-tanking "know-it-all" tells me that my team sucks and that the season is a complete waste and that we will be irrelevant for years to come (welcome to mediocrity).....all BEFORE we played one game in 2013-2014!

                          I've learnt to accept that some people are just shit talkers.......Shall we call it even?

                          I know you don't speak for pro-tankers .....but tanking was actually a strategy that was proposed around these parts for months. You being a mod should know this. Also, to call yourself a pro-tanker while saying it was never a strategy of yours, "just a potential/expected residual impact" sounds a little iffy me. If I didn't see your silly avatar, i'd think you were someone else. It's almost like you went to the Bryan Colangelo school of double talk... just wow. Dude, your the tank commander. You were one of the firsts to embrace the tank.....or so i thought.

                          Regardless, who really cares right? I never really got along with pro-tankers on here because i was dismissed as "drinking the kool-aid" or niave.

                          I find it funny that some pro-tankers such as yourself are getting upset over my advice. Is it my fault Masai made the changes MANY of us anti-tankers were looking for? He got rid of Bargs, Gay and sure'd up the bench. We gained more flexibility and don't have Rudy's 19 million dollar option hanging over our heads. This team appears to be playing a lot better. Why does this bother you so much?? Why are we still talking about tanking? Dude, no need to be bitter. Sometimes things don't go the way that you wanted. Such is life!

                          Screw tanking!
                          I've always been a rebuilder/retooler, going back to the thread with the poll titled "tanker or tweaker" - I didn't vote and stated my preference for a 3rd option in that thread. I haven't changed my stance since then.

                          I embraced my status as a 'pro-tanker' when I always got lumped into that group whenever I discussed ideas that involved any sort of rebuilding/retooling, with many anti-tankers never taking the time to understand the nuances of the team-building strategy I (and many others) proposed. I supported a rebuilding/retooling and felt that if rebuilding was chosen as the path to take, that the best time to implement it was before the season started (not spending half the season in "wait and see" mode), to allow the team to also take advantage of the loaded draft.

                          You and I have had a couple discussion about this over the course of the season, so I'm not sure how that now comes as any surprise.

                          The first bolded part was an opinion shared by many; nothing more, nothing less. There were many posters who were just as adamant about the opposite, hence all the arguments. As for the second bolded part, you're right, but just as many insults were thrown the other way as well. It's always been a passionate, contentious issue from both sides, with both sides being guilty of disrespecting the other side at times.

                          As for the third bold, it's the holier-than-though pedestal you've built for yourself, from the assumption that anybody who supported a rebuild/retool/tank/whatever is somehow less of a fan and/or enjoys the team any less. That's never been the case and I don't appreciate you insinuating otherwise. Did you really even read the post of mine that you quoted?

                          Comment


                          • CalgaryRapsFan wrote: View Post
                            I've always been a rebuilder/retooler, going back to the thread with the poll titled "tanker or tweaker" - I didn't vote and stated my preference for a 3rd option in that thread. I haven't changed my stance since then.

                            I embraced my status as a 'pro-tanker' when I always got lumped into that group whenever I discussed ideas that involved any sort of rebuilding/retooling, with many anti-tankers never taking the time to understand the nuances of the team-building strategy I (and many others) proposed. I supported a rebuilding/retooling and felt that if rebuilding was chosen as the path to take, that the best time to implement it was before the season started (not spending half the season in "wait and see" mode), to allow the team to also take advantage of the loaded draft.

                            You and I have had a couple discussion about this over the course of the season, so I'm not sure how that now comes as any surprise.

                            The first bolded part was an opinion shared by many; nothing more, nothing less. There were many posters who were just as adamant about the opposite, hence all the arguments. As for the second bolded part, you're right, but just as many insults were thrown the other way as well. It's always been a passionate, contentious issue from both sides, with both sides being guilty of disrespecting the other side at times.

                            As for the third bold, it's the holier-than-though pedestal you've built for yourself, from the assumption that anybody who supported a rebuild/retool/tank/whatever is somehow less of a fan and/or enjoys the team any less. That's never been the case and I don't appreciate you insinuating otherwise. Did you really even read the post of mine that you quoted?
                            1st Bold

                            No idea what your talking about here. You chose to be a pro-tanker and now your saying that wasn't your strategy (some anti-tanker forced you to be) . I've got nothing to say about that. I supported a rebuild/re-tooling BUT one that left us competitive. I thought it was possible and it appears it was possible. We can debate the effect on this team's future, in the future.

                            2nd Bold

                            The pro-tankers outnumbered the anti-tankers by a vast majority. There was a poll on this site and the numbers weren't even close. For every vocal anti-tanker there were 5-10 vocal pro-tankers. Obviously, this is just my opinion and i have no way of verifying this.

                            3rd Bold

                            Ugh...

                            I supported a rebuild/re-tool.....I did not support a tank. With regards to you feeling like less of a fan, because you didn't believe in this group.... that's really your conscience isn't it? I always believe a posters actions/words speak for themselves. If you supported this team and currently cheer for them - Great! If you didn't? Welcome back.

                            Comment


                            • special1 wrote: View Post
                              With regards to you feeling like less of a fan, because you didn't believe in this group.... that's really your conscience isn't it? I always believe a posters actions/words speak for themselves. If you supported this team and currently cheer for them - Great! If you didn't? Welcome back.
                              First, "this group" isn't the team that's winning. Gay was traded away and they were horrible with him, as expected.

                              Second, cut the sanctimonious shit.

                              Comment


                              • Wow, this feels like the exact same convo CRF had with someone 2 months ago. Can't remember if it was special1 or someone else, but it seriously seems word for word (on my phone, so no searching for me).

                                Now that the "tank" seems over, we can now use the wording that best describes the movement "rebuild". Time for some Bob the Builder avatars?
                                Heir, Prince of Cambridge

                                If you see KeonClark in the wasteland, please share your food and water with him.

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