Bryan Colangelo - Updated Legacy?

[golden]

Giving BC credit for this team is like giving the guy who bought the picks and shovel credit for finding the gold. BC had arguably even more expensive tools, and we all know what he was shoveling.....

[Miekenstien]

Colangelo deserves credit as well for this team's success.

but not too much, as much as his guys litter this team, his other guys were holding us down. if he resigns gay to the extension he wants and we lose all last year is lowry still here? does he ship off ross for some home run shot? he was great at evaluating talent and horrible at roster management.

we can neither commend nor reproach his vision of what our team is now because it isn't his anymore. if b.c. were still here the raptors would not be the team we see today. maybe better/maybe worse but not what it is.

when masai came in he said deep and young. that is what this team is now. it is masai's

[The Great One]

I'm gonna continue to defend Colangelo here. I think he's a great GM. He made some mistakes here like every other GM, the biggest one probably was not retaining Bosh. Or not trading him while his value was high.

But if you look at this current team, this is Colangelo's team. He drafted DeMar, JV, Ross, traded for Lowry, and Amir. He's the one that hired Casey. This is his team. Now Masai has done a real GREAT job of adding complimentary players, but i thnk Colangelo deserves credit as well for this team's success.

And yeah i'm surprised that Colangelo still lives in Toronto.

[Jclaw]

Great interview with colangelo on primetime tonight. Humble but honest. Impressed that he's still here in toronto. Maybe we'll do a 2 for 1 and bring both him and Vince back for a mention in the 20th anniversary tour. May have to wait for TL to be gone.

[Mack North]

Yeah, I whiffed on trades and free agents but I brought in some decent players. My greatest weakness was never being in sync with the coaches I hired, and assembling a team that suited their strengths. I had a good thing going with Casey but I blew it by panicking and trading for Rudy.

Ermahgersh! Bryan! Thanks for giving us a bunch of the talent we have, and for extending our coach as well. You are the real brains behind this team, I know you set it up so that Masai would return to take your job. If it wasn't for you, we would have never won the division this year. That Bargnani deal to the Knicks and the Gay trade was really you in the background, atoning for previous "mistakes", wasn't it?

[bryan colangelo]

Yeah, I whiffed on trades and free agents but I brought in some decent players. My greatest weakness was never being in sync with the coaches I hired, and assembling a team that suited their strengths. I had a good thing going with Casey but I blew it by panicking and trading for Rudy.

[ezz_bee]

but bc by the end was willing to wait for the rewards.

Was he? Yes, he was willing for delayed gratification when he drafted JV at No. 5 in the 2011 draft, but the very next year, the year when Val would be coming in as a ROOKIE, (and as BC told us with Bargs, "big men take a few years to develop") and ROOKIE Ross, wouldn't the BC you're talking about continue the rebuild with a poor showing in 2012 continue to add YOUNG pieces to a DD/JV/TRoss Core? Instead, he went after Nash (Swing and a miss), and traded our 2013 1st rounder to Houston for Lowry. The Raps miss the playoffs and our #13 pick went to OKC via Houston (Steven Adams). You know who went two spots later? The same player our GM was trying to trade into the draft for: Giannis Antetokounmpo. I'm not saying that the Lowry trade was wrong, or that I'd rather have Giannis than Lowry, and in general the 2013 draft is crap, BUT I do think it undermines your argument that BC somehow learned patience. I demonstrated patience for move. Than 1 year later was impatient again and swung for the fences (Nash and Fields). When he missed, he didn't take it as a sign and waited so more, he swung again (Lowry), and then even though the Raptors were still mediocre, he swung again (Gay). Wouldn't it have been nice if he made our 2013 1st rounder lottery protected? Then we'd have Lowry AND Giannis (although we'd probably have to give up this year's number 20).

You can't point to one particular instance of patience (JV selection or two if you count Barg's) and say he learned how to be patient, when there's multiple instances after that decision, where he clearly did NOT exercise patience.

EDIT: Again, it's not necessarily all on BC because we don't know what ownership was feeding him. BUT I think it's a safer assumption that 2, or 3 or 7 more years of BC would be like his previous year's than to assume he changed right at the end and we'd have a different BC in 2013 on wards.

[Miekenstien]

Not sure what you mean by this. The first thing I said in my post was that his major strength was drafting. BC made the moves he made, I'm not trying to use historiography to change the moves he made.

i think both picks were good choices. but bc by the end was willing to wait for the rewards. his drafting was always good. whether it is him listening to scouts or his eye for talent bc was good on draft night.

[ezz_bee]

the bc you describe takes kemba and not jonas.

Not sure what you mean by this. The first thing I said in my post was that his major strength was drafting. BC made the moves he made, I'm not trying to use historiography to change the moves he made.

colangelo is like the d'antoni of gms. both are living off of nash's greatness. congrats to them.

+1

I like this comparison a lot. Not just because of the Nash reference. Both guy's were clearly above average at one particular aspect of their roles, but lacked competency in all the required facets of those roles.

[Miekenstien]

I initially thought that we were being to hard on Coangelo after he left, and his draft record is among the best in terms of performance of players drafted versus other players drafted at the same position in other drafts, and as people are pointing out, Demar, Ross, JV (and Amir) seem like good moves, that keep on giving. I'm on record as being a strong defender of the controversial Derozan signing.

That said, other than the Garbo years, he's been consistently unable to put together a decent team 7-10 players deep. Vasquez and Patterson were huge in the playoffs this year, and those two combined with Salmons made a lot of contributions during the season that helped our team secure home court advantage. He struck out every time he swung for the fences, but was good enough to get himself out those messes. This lead to the false appearance of progression and regression, when in reality our overall talent levels stayed consistently mediocre.

There was nothing wrong with the Bargnani pick, but he kept him at least 2 seasons too long (you can go back 3 years or more to find posts with guys saying he is what he is, so let's trade him now) the amount of value the franchise lost by holding on to him for too long is staggering we traded him for draft picks and Steve Novak and all rejoiced at the fact that we fleeced the Knicks (because we did). Had Coangelo been willing to move him before his value dropped off a cliff (and again there was a 2-3 year window in which to make a move) Coangelo would have gotten enough back to actually put a team around Bosh that may have been able to not only get into the playoffs but out of the first round.

So yes, Coangelo has an eye for talent, but his lack of patience, and his inability to see players as assets (he's on record as being loyal to players, but was never able to parlay that loyalty into tangible benefit to players) has lead to him being ineffective GM if you are looking to win.

We'll never know how much of his short-term decision making was at the behest of ownership. Personally, I doubt I would hire him as a GM if was an owner, but he is not incompetent and would deserve a job in another organisation. That doesn't change the fact that the strong showing of last years team can be (at least partially) attributed to moves Ujiri made,(Bargnani, Gay, and even floating a Lowry trade) that seem unlikely to have been made by Coangelo given his track record.

This is without mentioning what a horrible cap space situation he put us in with Bargs and Gay. When Coangelo was trying to save his job he was arguing that he had a good team that just needed some organic growth , maybe that was in part due the fact under there current situation (with both Bargs and Gay on the roster), it seemed impossible to add talent any other way. Although fans had turned against Bargs and may have forced him out of town anyway, does anyone really believe that had Coangelo been rehired he would have made the Gay trade? After selling the team with Gay as a core player as his central argument to be rehired? I would argue his track record would indicate that he would have tried other short-term tweaks.

A lot of what we perceive as the positives of his legacy were only possible once he was removed from decision making. If I'm making a rational assessment of the Coangelo years' it tops out at capable/average but I have a hard time saying he was a competent GM.


This was Coangelo's starting 5 in 2013 had he kept his job

Lowry
Derozan
Gay
Bargnani
JV

After watching the human rights violation that was our offense in 2013, NOW imagine what it would have looked like after you swap Amir (low usage, high effeciency, not a ball stopper) for Bargnani (high usage, low efficiency, ball stopper) and that's not mentioning the impact at the defensive end. Had Lowry looked like 2013 Lowry for the whole season, we'd probably all be unhappy with his performance and hope he wouldn't be resigned. Ross wouldn't have gotten nearly as many minutes

I'm not trying to rehash old arguments. My argument is that had Coangelo remained as GM, a lot of what we are attributing as positives of his legacy wouldn't have happened had he stayed in charge. Basically, he only looks good because he left. Those saying he should be allowed near a basketball team are overreacted (especially due to the unknown role of ownership).

I think Coangelo would have made a very decent GM for the Kohl era Bucks.

good post. i read it all. agree and disagree. i think by the end he had figured out that there was no quick fix. he might not of traded bargs and gay or maybe bargs but not gay, but i think he had started building. the bc you describe takes kemba and not jonas. he liked the idea of being one move away from executive of the year and gay isn't a bad player.

colangelo is like the d'antoni of gms. both are living off of nash's greatness. congrats to them.

[drunkmunky]

Finally saw the BC commentary on Free Agency. I like the fact that he kept on mentioning his own players like Calderon and Lowry, and then when the topic of New York came up he was hush hush about Bargs lol

[Mack North]

oh fuck.... some of you guys, no matter the comment, will twist it any way you can to rip Bryan Colangelo.

Give it a rest. He was a good GM, he made some mistakes... no different than almost all of um. You guys are fucking classic with your armchair, hindsight brilliance.

Let it go

Agreed. While it didn't work out in the end, at least the guy was an active GM and he did try. He gave us a lot of the guys we have now, including the coach. Not to mention he gave our new GM a great gig to begin with. He's gone, get over it.

[ezz_bee]

I initially thought that we were being to hard on Coangelo after he left, and his draft record is among the best in terms of performance of players drafted versus other players drafted at the same position in other drafts, and as people are pointing out, Demar, Ross, JV (and Amir) seem like good moves, that keep on giving. I'm on record as being a strong defender of the controversial Derozan signing.

That said, other than the Garbo years, he's been consistently unable to put together a decent team 7-10 players deep. Vasquez and Patterson were huge in the playoffs this year, and those two combined with Salmons made a lot of contributions during the season that helped our team secure home court advantage. He struck out every time he swung for the fences, but was good enough to get himself out those messes. This lead to the false appearance of progression and regression, when in reality our overall talent levels stayed consistently mediocre.

There was nothing wrong with the Bargnani pick, but he kept him at least 2 seasons too long (you can go back 3 years or more to find posts with guys saying he is what he is, so let's trade him now) the amount of value the franchise lost by holding on to him for too long is staggering we traded him for draft picks and Steve Novak and all rejoiced at the fact that we fleeced the Knicks (because we did). Had Coangelo been willing to move him before his value dropped off a cliff (and again there was a 2-3 year window in which to make a move) Coangelo would have gotten enough back to actually put a team around Bosh that may have been able to not only get into the playoffs but out of the first round.

So yes, Coangelo has an eye for talent, but his lack of patience, and his inability to see players as assets (he's on record as being loyal to players, but was never able to parlay that loyalty into tangible benefit to players) has lead to him being ineffective GM if you are looking to win.

We'll never know how much of his short-term decision making was at the behest of ownership. Personally, I doubt I would hire him as a GM if was an owner, but he is not incompetent and would deserve a job in another organisation. That doesn't change the fact that the strong showing of last years team can be (at least partially) attributed to moves Ujiri made,(Bargnani, Gay, and even floating a Lowry trade) that seem unlikely to have been made by Coangelo given his track record.

This is without mentioning what a horrible cap space situation he put us in with Bargs and Gay. When Coangelo was trying to save his job he was arguing that he had a good team that just needed some organic growth , maybe that was in part due the fact under there current situation (with both Bargs and Gay on the roster), it seemed impossible to add talent any other way. Although fans had turned against Bargs and may have forced him out of town anyway, does anyone really believe that had Coangelo been rehired he would have made the Gay trade? After selling the team with Gay as a core player as his central argument to be rehired? I would argue his track record would indicate that he would have tried other short-term tweaks.

A lot of what we perceive as the positives of his legacy were only possible once he was removed from decision making. If I'm making a rational assessment of the Coangelo years' it tops out at capable/average but I have a hard time saying he was a competent GM.


This was Coangelo's starting 5 in 2013 had he kept his job

Lowry
Derozan
Gay
Bargnani
JV

After watching the human rights violation that was our offense in 2013, NOW imagine what it would have looked like after you swap Amir (low usage, high effeciency, not a ball stopper) for Bargnani (high usage, low efficiency, ball stopper) and that's not mentioning the impact at the defensive end. Had Lowry looked like 2013 Lowry for the whole season, we'd probably all be unhappy with his performance and hope he wouldn't be resigned. Ross wouldn't have gotten nearly as many minutes

I'm not trying to rehash old arguments. My argument is that had Coangelo remained as GM, a lot of what we are attributing as positives of his legacy wouldn't have happened had he stayed in charge. Basically, he only looks good because he left. Those saying he should be allowed near a basketball team are overreacted (especially due to the unknown role of ownership).

I think Coangelo would have made a very decent GM for the Kohl era Bucks.

[Dr Hannibal Lecter]

Honestly I wanted 2 say something about Colangelo,but I'll just leave u with video and u judge for ure self. I'm just glad his far away from Raptors organization.

Colangelo's Speech before the draft (Andrea Draft)

[2KJ]

Like what most of you guys said, Bryan Colangelo has a great eye for talent, but he just can't put them together. And based on his transactions, he is an impatient man who prefers quick fixes than a slow and steady rebuild (He can't even tank properly). He did many mistakes, he also did correct them (or tried). I would give him a pass though that Bryan had a shitty ownership tenure/CEO (Peddie) who only wants to make money. Unlike Masai, who has Tim L, who is a proven winner.

However, keep in mind too that just like Masai's first tenure, Colangelo also made the playoffs in his first tenure, with that Euro team. So Masai's test will be the next seasons. He did state that the main thing they're trying to avoid is being in no man's land, which is pretty much where Bryan Colangelo put the team.

Bryan did got the parts/ingredients, but it's Masai who's assembling/building/cooking the final products.