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  • #16
    Craiger wrote: View Post
    I've got to ask... how'd that glass turn out?
    It's about the same fullness or emptiness. Not enough for me to tune in regularly anymore.

    Sent from my Note 3 using Tapatalk

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    • #17
      Meh if Tim was right before he shouldn't be quickly dismissed. I don't know why concept of getting lucky is totally ignored. Sometimes you get lucky and get a good player later in a draft. Sometime players develops beyond of what you expected.
      So if Boston, Philly, Bucks and Orlando are ****ing. I guess one of them should be NBA Champion sometime in a future, according to the whole **** theory
      Last edited by MixxAOR; Sat Jan 11th, 2014, 10:55 AM.
      Only one thing matters: We The Champs.

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      • #18
        Craiger wrote: View Post
        I've got to ask... how'd that glass turn out?
        We all know how that turned out, but the right question is WHY that turned out like that?
        Was it because as you suggest we didn't **** that year, get a high pick and build from the draft? Or was it because of the awful moves management took with overpaying free agents, giving away future picks and generally not doing your job?
        If you ask me the reason was definetely the latter, and I see absolutely no reason that MU is on the path to duplicate history. I still cannot believe there are still people that think the only way to build a contender is through a high draft pick in the draft - just look at the elite teams in the EC:
        1. Indiana - highest player drafted on that team was selected 10th!
        2. Miami - well we all know how that happened.
        Why do you think these two models cannot be duplicated in TO?

        And P.S.
        I do not think MU (unlike BC) has set in stone that certain players are untouchable. Just that he is not selling Lowry for expirings or DD for future non-lottery pick. If a right offer came along, he's pulling the trigger and the current Raptors run is just increasing MU asking price for our assets!

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        • #19
          dzoni71 wrote: View Post
          We all know how that turned out, but the right question is WHY that turned out like that?
          Was it because as you suggest we didn't **** that year, get a high pick and build from the draft? Or was it because of the awful moves management took with overpaying free agents, giving away future picks and generally not doing your job?
          If you ask me the reason was definetely the latter, and I see absolutely no reason that MU is on the path to duplicate history. I still cannot believe there are still people that think the only way to build a contender is through a high draft pick in the draft - just look at the elite teams in the EC:
          1. Indiana - highest player drafted on that team was selected 10th!
          2. Miami - well we all know how that happened.
          Why do you think these two models cannot be duplicated in TO?

          And P.S.
          I do not think MU (unlike BC) has set in stone that certain players are untouchable. Just that he is not selling Lowry for expirings or DD for future non-lottery pick. If a right offer came along, he's pulling the trigger and the current Raptors run is just increasing MU asking price for our assets!
          I'm not going to turn this into a debate about ****ing so I'm going to try avoid that in anything but generalities:

          We have no idea what all potential alternatives could have been. You thinking the result was because of bad management is fair, but is it any less fair if one thinks that not ****ing itself was bad management? It limited opportunities, potential, created choices that would have otherwise not existed etc. What if BC was willing to **** and rebuild (rather than 'accelerate' the rebuild) at numerous points in time in the past? What would have the return for Bosh or Bargnani been, who could have been drafted instead? etc etc So many unknowns... its impossible to quantify them all. How much different is BC's tenure if he does one simple thing different - not marry himself to Bargs?

          There is always an excuse for something if we look hard enough. If someone predicts X, another Y and X turns out to be true... its rarely hard to find an excuse or reason as to why it wasn't Y. Some times its fair, sometimes its not.

          I'm not going to disagree with you that management was bad, far from it. But I personally think one of the worst mistakes made was not being willing to rebuild when the team should have many many years ago.

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          • #20
            Craiger wrote: View Post
            I've got to ask... how'd that glass turn out?
            Even a broken clock is right twice a day. His glass half empty shtick this year is looking half full of shiit these days. He's such a stubbornly arrogant bugger though. A little while ago I made some comment about his predictable babble/shtick after a couple of the Raps resurgence games, and he responded that his "shtick is being RIGHT".

            Critique is part of fandom, but he's so obsessed with it, that he fits what I describe as the easiest way to be a fan of a team. Critcize everything and when you're "right", you can claim victory. When you're wrong, you can say you're happy to have been wrong. Win-win, no matter what happens,,,,, for a guy like him anyway, as in a guy who enjoys being "right" about his criticism. Ironic thing is, he can't handle criticism of his opinions very well at all.

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            • #21
              I've always said that winning a championship is an extremely long odds game. Regardless of what strategy you choose, odds are that it is not going to result in a championship. Choose any strategy, and for every team that rides it to a championship, there's usually a dozen or more that have tried the same strategy and failed. Which isn't to say that one shouldn't try. Just that arguing that one strategy is superior to another isn't about a high-percentage strategy vs. a low-percentage strategy, it's about two very low-percentage strategies. Tim's arguments (and dismissal of every other argument) ring of emotional attachment. Which is fine, it's sports, everyone gets too attached to teams, to particular players, or sometimes to strategies.

              I'm not ecstatic about the current course of the team, because I think too much of it will come down to ability to retain a key free agent for a decent contract this offseason. And we've seen that script before here. But if they get by that key moment, then a long run as third/fourth place team in the east seems possible, with a window to move beyond that into contender status. Right now I'm good with the odds of that strategy. I don't think it's anywhere near as rosy as Hollinger's 8.9% odds of winning a championship this year, but it's better than most teams in the league, and better than the Raptors' odds have been in many years.

              Comment


              • #22
                slaw wrote: View Post
                The main thing that is starting to really wear on me about this entire discussion is the false choice that is being presented between ****ing for a star or keeping the current group together as though those are the only two options you can consider. Oh, and, you have to make that decision RIGHT NOW!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

                Building any organization doesn't come down to series of multiple choice questions frozen in one time and place, which answers are set in stone forever and produce specific pre-determined outcomes based on simple probablities. This is chess. The situation is dynamic, ever-evolving and presents countless alternatives for the prepared and intelligent.

                The last person I want in charge of any situation is someone who has their plan set in stone and can't make adjustments or change course along the way. A great organizational leader is constantly evaluating and making moves accordingly.

                As for those who seem to believe Ujiri has no plan, well, to me that perspective arises from a fundamental misunderstanding of the concepts of philosophy, strategy and tactics. They are not the same thing and a change of tactics or strategy does not imply the absence of an overarching organization philosophy that drives the overall direction of the business.
                I've lost my post twice now on my stupid phone but suffice to say this is rationalizing tactics as strategy.

                Before the season MU gives the team a 45 day evaluation period. Tries to t.ank by trading Gay and actively shopping Lowry, making Demar available.

                Then we start winning.

                Now we have a NEW evaluation period?? What is beating a bunch of weak teams at home going to tell us that we don't already know?

                This is not dynamic chessic strategy, it's the epitome of flying by the seat of your pants.

                Sources:
                http://www.thestar.com/sports/raptors/2013/10/30/raptors_cue_the_teardown_if_team_doesnt_take_fligh t_kelly.html

                http://www.thestar.com/sports/raptors/2014/01/08/raptors_play_ugly_but_effective_in_win_over_detroi t_kelly.html
                It's the Spicy Show! Time to cook.

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                • #23
                  Scraptor wrote: View Post
                  Before the season MU gives the team a 45 day evaluation period. Tries to t.ank by trading Gay and actively shopping Lowry, making Demar available.

                  Then we start winning.
                  How do you know he tried to ****? Where is this crystal ball that gives you exclusive access to MUs plans?
                  The Baltic Beast is unstoppable!

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    What do you call the Knicks trade for Lowry that Dolan kiboshed because he didn't want to give up a pick?

                    In conjunction with the Gay trade it was pretty obvious.
                    It's the Spicy Show! Time to cook.

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Scraptor wrote: View Post
                      What do you call the Knicks trade for Lowry that Dolan kiboshed because he didn't want to give up a pick?

                      In conjunction with the Gay trade it was pretty obvious.
                      So basically, youre throwing out an arbitrary assumption based on trade rumours of which we do not know the entire details for.

                      Do you know what happens when we assume?

                      You make an ass of u+me.
                      The Baltic Beast is unstoppable!

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        enlightenment wrote: View Post
                        So basically, youre throwing out an arbitrary assumption based on trade rumours of which we do not know the entire details for.

                        Do you know what happens when we assume?

                        You make an ass of u+me.
                        aren't you equally assuming the trade rumours are false?

                        Is there any evidence that suggests this information shouldn't be seen as credible (Lowry and Demar were on the market?). They were are brought up by reliable sources if I'm not mistaken.

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                        • #27
                          Craiger wrote: View Post
                          aren't you equally assuming the trade rumours are false?

                          Is there any evidence that suggests this information shouldn't be seen as credible (Lowry and Demar were on the market?). They were are brought up by reliable sources if I'm not mistaken.
                          I don't think Ujiri was trying to **** by making Lowry available, he was just testing the market (that had a great demand for PGs). If he got a great offer he would take it, if not, he would move on (which he did). Ujiri wasn't backed into a corner where he had to move Lowry.The rumor was he was asking for a 1st round pick in addition to GRJR or Shumpert. That would have been a pretty good return on Lowry. NYK didn't bite so Ujiri moved on. The man is an opportunist, plain and simple.

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                          • #28
                            Primer wrote: View Post
                            I don't think Ujiri was trying to **** by making Lowry available, he was just testing the market (that had a great demand for PGs). If he got a great offer he would take it, if not, he would move on (which he did). Ujiri wasn't backed into a corner where he had to move Lowry.The rumor was he was asking for a 1st round pick in addition to GRJR or Shumpert. That would have been a pretty good return on Lowry. NYK didn't bite so Ujiri moved on. The man is an opportunist, plain and simple.
                            all that may be true.

                            But lets assume he asked for a 1st, Shumpert and/or GRJR

                            Could we not reasonable expect that said deal would lead to losses for Toronto in the short term?

                            Assuming thats what he wanted, and that he was willing to give up a good player, on a very good (and expiring) contract, in a position of need on this team - that move screams **** to me.

                            (in no way saying that the deal would have been bad... just very ****y)

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                            • #29
                              enlightenment wrote: View Post
                              So basically, youre throwing out an arbitrary assumption based on trade rumours of which we do not know the entire details for.

                              Do you know what happens when we assume?

                              You make an ass of u+me.
                              Lol, thanks Teach.

                              Regardless of the motive for the Gay trade, why do we now have a second evaluation period? Why do we constantly seem to be walking the line of "oh if we start losing then we'll blow it up"?

                              You can't make long term decisions based on short term criteria.

                              You can question the sources all you want, but there haven't been any leaks suggesting Masai has a grand plan in mind, while there have been plenty suggesting otherwise.

                              If opportunism is to be his MO, a la Daryl Morey, so be it, but that is probably going to be a much tougher go here in Canada than it is in Houston.
                              It's the Spicy Show! Time to cook.

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Craiger wrote: View Post
                                aren't you equally assuming the trade rumours are false?

                                Is there any evidence that suggests this information shouldn't be seen as credible (Lowry and Demar were on the market?). They were are brought up by reliable sources if I'm not mistaken.
                                How do you jump from me claiming he has no knowledge of MUs plan, to me claiming i do have knowledge of MUs plan??

                                The point is don't freaking assume the motives of a trade rumour. I never made a claim about MUs plan.
                                The Baltic Beast is unstoppable!

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