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Why I think comparing this sqaud to the 2006-07 squad is a bad comparison

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  • #16
    slaw wrote: View Post
    I think the comparison is made because of the circumstances moreso than the specific players:

    1. 2006: New saviour GM.
    2013: New saviour GM.

    2. 2006: Beleagured head coach in last year of deal.
    2013: Beleagured head coach in last year of deal.

    3. 2006: Poor start.
    2013: Poor start.

    4. 2006: Infusion of veterans via FA changes dynamics.
    2013: Infusion of veterans via trade changes dynamics.

    5. 2006: Many fans wondering if team needed to continue rebuild to land a star beside Bosh.
    2013: Many fans want to **** to try and land a star.

    6. 2006: Playoff team after years of futility
    2013: Likely Playoff team after years of futility.

    Of course the makeup of the teams is different in many ways but the comparison from a big picture perspective is apt.

    The comparison with the 2006/07 team is definetely more situational/team building than player based. One can always find difference between players and rosters, even comparible players and rosters, but the entire situation is eeriely similar. (I'd also add terrible east/atlantic division to that list)

    Just a few tidbits to the OP:

    - Toronto in 2006/07 had a 103.2 DRTG definetely below (err above... well you know what I mean) the 99.9 we see today, but it was still good for 12th in the league that year. Ofcourse the difference being the Raptors offense that year which ranked tied for 5th overall at 106.5 (vs 102.5 today) *ok just noticing you mentioned this

    - the starting line up today is younger than the 2006/07 starters by about 3 years - and this includes Rasho who only played 21 minutes a game in 06/07. (He was a starter, but played less than the back up Bargnani at 25 min), but the most used players (top 10, although I will say who the 'top 10' are is relatively questionable and relative right now) were actually younger in 2006/07. But more to the point Ford was 23, Bosh 22, Jose 25, Bargnani 21, Hump 21, Graham 24. (none of that includes Tucker or Slokar at 21 and 23 respectively)

    - Bosh never received 'max dollars' per se. He received, if I'm not mistaken, the max for a player coming off their rookie deal at that time. But those aren't quite the same. He averaged 14 mil over 3 years. Given his quality of play, age and years of experience I think thats a reasonable deal. Give him 18-20 mil, we may be having a different discussion ofcourse.

    To me the differences really come down to few main things:

    - I'm not sure if this will make sense but, the 2006/07 team was a bit deeper in the shallow bench (with Mo Pete and Jose coming off the bench) and better at the very top (ie. Bosh). This current team is bit more well rounded.

    - Since the Gay trade, Casey has been running an almost 'playoff' like line up - heavy minutes for the starters, steady back up minutes for Salmons and Patterson, Vasquez getting some minutes (and dropping)... everyone else almost irrelevant (although used for spot minutes). Its essentially an 8 man line up, probably 9 when Hansborough is healthy. In 2006/07 there were only 2 players who averaged more than 30 minutes a game (Bosh and Parker), but 10 players over 20. That team was a 10 man line up + a handful of spot minutes

    - now ofcourse the big one - Bargnani. This to me is the significant difference. The former GM married himself to a player, and a player that was not particularily good (in fact I'd argue particularily bad), which had serious short and long term effects. I'm not going to assume Masai is married to anyone here, but even if we do for sake of argument, there is no one on this roster that I think that shows the level of liable play Bargs did. This is a double edged sword though in some respects... Colangelo marrying himself to a liability hurt the teams future development/improvement. At the same time, there was no shortage of fans who thought there was enourmous potential there... much like they do some on this roster. Again i don't think anyone here is 'bargnani'-ish, but its still a warning that potential is just an idea and potential doesn't win you games.


    • #17
      Nice write up Craiger! Many good points and also you reminded me of the situation a bit better. Just a few comments:

      In your age comparisons I was actually a bit surprised to see the age rundown back then and forgot the potential for growth in these players back then. That said, I don't think I would put Graham or Humphries on that list. I know there were a few supporters of each but for me at least I never thought either would be a significant piece moving forward. Yes Bosh at 14mil is reasonable considering his dominance on offence, and at 22 still time for D to come. My outlook on Bosh was definitely colored by his later years but you are right, at the time the potential and hope was there(I was definitely in the camp that didn't want to resign him to a max deal later on). Ford and Jose was definatetly an interesting case. Because of Ford's subpar shot I didn't actually expect any more growth from him(I thought when he came here he was pretty much who he was as a player), whereas Jose was more of an unknown. Both I saw as complimentary players that are needed on good teams but not as top-tier talent. Bargs, as you say, was the key difference. He was supposed to be our future impact player. Much in the way we look at JV now we looked at Bargs then.

      Just for fun this is how I would view the similarities on a player matchup basis(as you say, always a flawed practice but always also fun to do):

      Bargs vs. JV -both high draft picks who were to be key pieces in the future, Both have grown slower than many fans would like and still have big weaknesses in their game. We found out that Bargs was never to be a top-tier talent, if this is all JV turns out to be then he is similarly not a top tier talent. Your guess is as good as mine as to how JV will develop but right now he is having more of an impact because of the way he plays the game. JV changes shots on D and is a solid rebounder and he can still be productive even without the ball running through him. Bargs, on the other hand, needed to be scoring and on the perimeter to be productive.

      Bosh vs. DD- This comparison is due to being the guy that plays run through. Bosh was(or would develop into at least) a dominant scorer. I don't know how many time I saw Bosh in the high post hold the ball for like 10 seconds and then destroy whoever was guarding him. DD is a way less scary player. Both had average D at best. DD's offence comes within the flow of the offence, Whereas Bosh's wasn't.

      Garbo/Parker vs. Lowry/Amir -Maybe a weird comparison but I think they fit. Parker was our top guard defender and Amir was our garbage man effort D down low. Both Parker and Lowry were expected to carry some of the scoring load. I think both Amir and Lowry are offensive upgrades over their counterparts.

      Ford and Jose vs TRoss -these players are all in the same group for me in terms of expectations. They all have an above average skill, but I expect them to be complimentary pieces in the end. Whats funny about TRoss is I think it might be a mentality thing. He's got speed, athletisicm, shot, and D but can he put it all together? With Ford you had speed(can't remember his D though) but with his shot you didn't expect much. With Jose you had a great shot and passing but you didn't expect much elsewhere.

      MoPete vs. Salmons -both gave a bit of O and solid D of the bench.

      I agree with your assessment of this team bring more well rounded, and that team being top heavy but better bench. I also agree that potential is only that until it is realized.

      Our current team is also constructed more traditionally. Lowry can match up with any PG in this league, whereas Ford and Jose made up the difference by not having any drop off in PG play throughout the entire game. DD is our wing scorer who can create a shot if need be, whereas it is difficult for most post players to be successful in this way(as it was for Bosh). Lowry also does this for us, whereas I think TJ was the guy that this was left to back then. DD or Lowry are upgrades in that situation. Our future Big has future impact not only on O but D as well. Also, being a traditional Big it balances the floor better with the other players in terms of offence. Both teams had the floor spacers with some athleticism in Parker/TRoss. Both had garbage men in Garbo/Amir(with Amir having great offence in midrange jumpers and P&R that maybe it is unfair to call him a garbage man?).

      Anyways, just more ramblings/thoughts.