Butch Carter: Vince should enter Hall as a Raptor

[iblastoff]

Yea. The Grizzles got moved cause of attendance, that's never been a problem with the Raps. Even before Carter

not even close to being the truth.

years leading up to carter:
1995-96 total attendance: 950,330 | avg: 23,179
1996-97 total attendance: 748,927 | avg: 18,267
1997-98 total attendance: 675,255 | avg: 16,469

massive decline year over year.

and when carter joined the ranks...

1998-99 total attendance: 439,190 (due to shortened season, but higher average attendance) | avg: 17,568
1999-00 total attendance: 756,496 avg: 18,451
2000-01 total attendance: 793,256 | avg: 19,348
2001-02 total attendance: 811,135 | avg: 19,784

[Craiger]

JimiCliff - You're more of an idealist than I am, I think. As Sir Charles would suggest, if you're looking for role models in basketball, you're probably looking in the wrong place. These are just a bunch of guys who happen to have hops and be good at ball sports. Character may or may not be included. Neither do high salaries elevate moral character - I'm not sure why we expect them to. If you get a raise at work, do you become a more moral employee/gain integrity? People are people, regardless of income.

Let sports be sports, I say.

Also, HoF's are tainted already. Guys with lesser resumes than Vince have made it. The lack of playoff runs hurt, but it's tough to keep out a top 25 scorer and 8x all-star who for a time was the league's most popular player (judging by all-star voting, fwiw). He's also had excellent longevity, which is a shock to anyone who's ever seen him take a foul.

I also appreciate that Vince single handedly ruined the slam dunk competition for me. It'll never live up to 2001 again. I still have the VHS.

The suggestion that if the Raps hadn't drafted him, "it would have been someone else" is a leap I'm not willing to take, though. We know who else it would have been - Antawn Jamison. I'm willing to bet those subsequent years would have sucked. Arguably Vince is the only true franchise player this team has had in 18 years. Aside from HoF issues, he's still the best thing that's happened to Raptors basketball.

The Raptors also had Tracy McGrady

[big red]

not even close to being the truth.

years leading up to carter:
1995-96 total attendance: 950,330 | avg: 23,179
1996-97 total attendance: 748,927 | avg: 18,267
1997-98 total attendance: 675,255 | avg: 16,469

massive decline year over year.

and when carter joined the ranks...

1998-99 total attendance: 439,190 (due to shortened season, but higher average attendance) | avg: 17,568
1999-00 total attendance: 756,496 avg: 18,451
2000-01 total attendance: 793,256 | avg: 19,348
2001-02 total attendance: 811,135 | avg: 19,784

With the caveat that the first-to-second-year drop would have been much less dramatic-looking if the first season hadn't been played in the Skydome with all that surplus seating.

[ebrian]

I cannot blame people for holding a grudge against Vince because I did so myself for a solid 8 years. I'm not going to attempt to tell you grudge-holders to find a way to let it go or to judge you. But I'm happy to explain how I came around to forgive Vince Carter.

In my opinion I think part of the reason so many people hate Vince, including those who are just casual fans, is because of our mentality as Canadians. We seem to cheer for the underdogs.. the guys that aren't necessarily the most skilled but those that work their butts off. Those are the types that tend to be fan favorites. Vince became the polar opposite of this type of player and so ultimately even the casual fan sees him as being the enemy.

For me, Vince transformed me from a casual fan into a hardcore Raptors fan. I had been a fan since the beginning but Vince made me LOVE the sport. Even the bad stuff transformed me -- his actions turned me from just being a huge fan to wanting to truly understand the sport at every level. Ultimately his lasting affect on the franchise turned me into an obsessed fan.

I'm not sure if this helps, but over the years I have discovered that people aren't perfect. Some guys are born with great talent but lack leadership, or the penchant of hard work. It could be that they discovered early on that they didn't need to work so hard to get by. Or it could just be something inherent in the make-up of their personality. Some guys are super smart, but are socially awkward. Some guys are good looking, but dumb as a rock. I remember when I was young, the best basketball player I knew was a guy who ended up just not growing much during his teenage years. The dude unfortunately ended up shorter than Earl Boykins by several inches after he stopped growing. Vince Carter was uber talented but lacked the mental drive to work hard through adversity. Basically, he gave up and when the media and fans turned on him, he shut down.

But that was years ago. When I watched Vince reflect on his past days as a Raptor and lament on how things went down, I saw a man who had realized that he missed out on likely the only real shot he ever had of being an integral part of a championship/contending team. I saw a man who looks back to those days with regret.

He may not show it, but regrets like that can eat away at a man, and I think his own internal suffering -- the realization that he blew his big chance, is enough for me. The thought that when he's 60 and looking back on his past career and understanding that the way he behaved cost him the one thing he wanted more than anything, to me that's enough. I don't feel the need to hate him anymore. Looking back it's been 15-18 years playing this game and the closest he ever came to winning it was with Toronto and he squandered it.

I think in the next ~40 years of my life I will have other opportunities to cheer for players and watch the Raptors contend again. Vince will never have that. And that's why I forgave him.

Edit: In retrospect after re-reading what I wrote, it's almost like a very passive-aggressive way to forgive someone. I forgive you because you continue to suffer for the rest of your life. LOL..

[Nilanka]

We can't retire Carter's jersey. Amir has earned the right to wear number 15.

[Letter N]

We can't retire Carter's jersey. Amir has earned the right to wear number 15.

Do they even retire numbers in the NBA? I thought they just raise them to the rafters, but the number is usable.

[Nilanka]

Do they even retire numbers in the NBA? I thought they just raise them to the rafters, but the number is usable.

Good point. I'm not sure. All I can think of are the retired numbers in Boston....

[S.R.]

I don't expect anyone to. This is about one specific question: can an athlete in good conscience choose to be inducted into the hall of fame as a member of a team that they out-and-out quit on? I say no; to me, there's something weird about it.

I do think he belongs there, by the way.

You're right - it would be weird, and there'd be that unusual history that would be so different from the love-fest of a typical HoF induction.

I don't think it's a given that he'll get in, either. He is a borderline candidate b/c of a lack of post-season success and how he left Toronto. What tips the scales for me is the "what he's done for the sport" element. Vince Carter was huge in the post-Jordan NBA and, as so many commenters (like ebrian) bring up, he's a big reason a lot of Canadian kids became basketball and NBA fans.

[BallaBalla]

why exactly should vince be in the hall of fame?

I agree that if he makes it, it has to be as a raptor...but what exactly did he do to deserve it?

[ebrian]

I think Vince would have to figure out a way to get Raptors fans to forgive him before he would consider retiring as a Raptor. He needs to gain that closure before he can go forward with it. I don't think he'll ever get that though.

Has anyone ever been inducted into the Hall of Fame without a team? Could Vince simply be inducted and have "NBA Player" on his plaque?

[S.R.]

not even close to being the truth.

years leading up to carter:
1995-96 total attendance: 950,330 | avg: 23,179
1996-97 total attendance: 748,927 | avg: 18,267
1997-98 total attendance: 675,255 | avg: 16,469

massive decline year over year.

and when carter joined the ranks...

1998-99 total attendance: 439,190 (due to shortened season, but higher average attendance) | avg: 17,568
1999-00 total attendance: 756,496 avg: 18,451
2000-01 total attendance: 793,256 | avg: 19,348
2001-02 total attendance: 811,135 | avg: 19,784

98-99 was both Carter's first season and the season they moved into the ACC. No wonder 97-98 attendance was lame - that was the last full season in the SkyDome and they went 16-66.

Anyone else sit in the upperdeck of the SkyDome for Raps games? That was....forgettable.

[BallaBalla]

98-99 was both Carter's first season and the season they moved into the ACC. No wonder 97-98 attendance was lame - that was the last full season in the SkyDome and they went 16-66.

Anyone else sit in the upperdeck of the SkyDome for Raps games? That was....forgettable.

I was watching Gametime over the weekend, and Tmac (who is now on the panel) mentioned playing at the Skydome as "The worst thing ever"

Anyway, I think that this thread is moot:

Tim Hardaway
Mitch Richmond
mark Jackson
Vlade Divac

Just a quick google search of guys that still have not made it but did so much more OVER THEIR ENTIRE CAREERS than Vince

I would love for Vince to put TO on the map here, but he is most famous for dunking, quitting and whining

[KeonClark]

Vince Carter, Hall of Famer? Nooooo.......(and he's my favorite player of all time so far). Did he ever take a team past the 2nd round? lol what a joke

[Letter N]

Vince Carter, Hall of Famer? Nooooo.......(and he's my favorite player of all time so far). Did he ever take a team past the 2nd round? lol what a joke

Oh shit, ya he wasn't part of either of the NJ finals teams.

Ya he's def not getting in then. You need more than All-Star fan votes for the Hall.

[yertu damkule]

there are, obviously, different tiers of players in the HOF, and VC, warts & all, belongs in the hall...though no one's going to mistake him as a top (or, really, a near-the-top) tier guy.

for some, it's pretty easy to put aside all the bullshit with the way he ended his time with the raps, and just focus on the fact that for a pretty solid decade, he was one of the very best players (at least offensively) in the game. arguing that he's not worthy because he didn't make an all-NBA first team, or that he didn't 'take his teams 'far' (enough?) in the playoffs is a bit disingenuous. his playoff numbers (like t-macs) are actually very, very good, in some cases better than what he did in the regular season. so much of playoff success comes down to the strength of a team, and i'd invite anyone to run down the list of his best teammates & point out how the teams he was supposedly unable/incapable of leading to a championship deserved to do so anyway, given the relative strengths/weaknesses of the team itself.

further, the b-ball HOF ISN'T the NBA hall of fame, so his contributions to the sport on larger scale do have an impact on whether he's a worthy HOFer.

regardless, he's in, though not right away. time heals all wounds, though i'd actually be surprised if he goes in as a raptor...he should, but he had similar success with the nets from a personal statistics standpoint, and more playoff success with them.