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Lowry/Derozan - best backcourt in the East?

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  • #76
    leach11 wrote: View Post
    Going off these playoffs, then yes.

    Derozan - TS %: .550, 23.9 ppg, 4.1 rpg, 3.6 apg, 1.1 spg, 2.6 tov, 18.35 PER
    Beal - TS %: .572, 20.7 ppg, 5 rpg, 4.7 apg, 1.7 spg, 2 tov, 19.38 PER

    Lowry - TS %: .567, 21.1 ppg, 4.7 rpg, 4.7 apg, 0.9 spg, 2.9 tov, 17.59 PER
    Wall - TS %: .470, 17.8 ppg, 4.7 rpg, 7.2 apg, 2 spg, 2.2 tov, 17.63 PER

    Beal has a slightly higher TS% and PER, but him and Derozan are fairly comparable statistically. If you just look at Beal's FG%/3PT% and compare them to Derozan's, it seems like he was far more efficient. But that simply isn't the case. Derozan's ability to get to the free throw line and convert at a 90% rate cannot be overlooked. I'd say Beal was slightly better than Derozan, but it's extremely close.

    Now moving on to Lowry and Wall. They had nearly identical PER's in the first round, but Wall's TS% was absolutely atrocious. From a shooting efficiency standpoint, he was one of the worst starters in the first round of the playoffs. Wall did have significantly more assists, more steals, and less turnovers, but this does not make up for how horrible he shot. Lowry was the far better player in the first round of these playoffs.

    Both back courts were very good, but I'd say Lowry/Derozan slightly outperformed Wall/Beal, at least from a statistical standpoint.
    Looking at those numbers, you've actually convinced me Beal/Wall had a better playoff performance. Wall assisted way more, and doubled Lowrys steals while turning over less. The TS% is low for Wall, but everything else he does in the game is the reason why his PER is higher. Beal trumps Derozan in every category other than ppg. These numbers clearly point to Beal/Wall > Lowry/Derozan
    The Baltic Beast is unstoppable!

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    • #77
      enlightenment wrote: View Post
      Looking at those numbers, you've actually convinced me Beal/Wall had a better playoff performance. Wall assisted way more, and doubled Lowrys steals while turning over less. The TS% is low for Wall, but everything else he does in the game is the reason why his PER is higher. Beal trumps Derozan in every category other than ppg. These numbers clearly point to Beal/Wall > Lowry/Derozan
      well, actually, his PER is probably higher because it credits players for missed shots - which is a flawed way to try and make up for high USG% players being more valuable.

      but whatever, i kinda came to the same conclusion as you.

      except that Lowry plays something close to lock down D, and steals doesn't credit him for all the offensive fouls he drew.

      I think it's pretty close to a wash.

      On the other hand, Wall and Beal are younger, so their future looks better. But on the other, other hand, Beal probably can't maintain the level he's playing at right now, he'll probably regress a little.
      "Bruno?
      Heh, if he is in the D-league still in a few years I will be surprised.
      He's terrible."

      -Superjudge, 7/23

      Hope you're wrong.

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      • #78
        leach11 wrote: View Post
        Going off these playoffs, then yes.

        Derozan - TS %: .550, 23.9 ppg, 4.1 rpg, 3.6 apg, 1.1 spg, 2.6 tov, 18.35 PER
        Beal - TS %: .572, 20.7 ppg, 5 rpg, 4.7 apg, 1.7 spg, 2 tov, 19.38 PER

        Lowry - TS %: .567, 21.1 ppg, 4.7 rpg, 4.7 apg, 0.9 spg, 2.9 tov, 17.59 PER
        Wall - TS %: .470, 17.8 ppg, 4.7 rpg, 7.2 apg, 2 spg, 2.2 tov, 17.63 PER

        Beal has a slightly higher TS% and PER, but him and Derozan are fairly comparable statistically. If you just look at Beal's FG%/3PT% and compare them to Derozan's, it seems like he was far more efficient. But that simply isn't the case. Derozan's ability to get to the free throw line and convert at a 90% rate cannot be overlooked. I'd say Beal was slightly better than Derozan, but it's extremely close.

        Now moving on to Lowry and Wall. They had nearly identical PER's in the first round, but Wall's TS% was absolutely atrocious. From a shooting efficiency standpoint, he was one of the worst starters in the first round of the playoffs. Wall did have significantly more assists, more steals, and less turnovers, but this does not make up for how horrible he shot. Lowry was the far better player in the first round of these playoffs.

        Both back courts were very good, but I'd say Lowry/Derozan slightly outperformed Wall/Beal, at least from a statistical standpoint.
        In terms of efficiency, you also have to take into consideration we played brooklyn who are in top 10 WORST defense while Washington played Chicago who are the top defensive team in the entire league.

        Overall I would still take beal/wall over DD/lowry considering wall is 23 and beal is only 20, which is insane.

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        • #79
          enlightenment wrote: View Post
          Looking at those numbers, you've actually convinced me Beal/Wall had a better playoff performance. Wall assisted way more, and doubled Lowrys steals while turning over less. The TS% is low for Wall, but everything else he does in the game is the reason why his PER is higher. Beal trumps Derozan in every category other than ppg. These numbers clearly point to Beal/Wall > Lowry/Derozan
          Wall's TS% isn't just low though, it's absolutely terrible. His and Lowry's PER are essentially the exact same, but PER undervalues shooting efficiency.

          Derozan's TS% is slightly less than Beal's, but he's also scoring over 3 points more per game. As you said though, Beal is better statisically in the other categories.

          The numbers don't clearly point to either, but they do show that there is reasonable debate here.

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          • #80
            iblastoff wrote: View Post
            In terms of efficiency, you also have to take into consideration we played brooklyn who are in top 10 WORST defense while Washington played Chicago who are the top defensive team in the entire league.

            Overall I would still take beal/wall over DD/lowry considering wall is 23 and beal is only 20, which is insane.
            Going forward, you're definitely right. I mean, if Derozan can substantially improve again this off season, then it will continue to be debatable, but the rational decision would be to take Beal/Wall going forward. I was just looking at who was better in this playoffs alone.

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            • #81
              iblastoff wrote: View Post
              In terms of efficiency, you also have to take into consideration we played brooklyn who are in top 10 WORST defense while Washington played Chicago who are the top defensive team in the entire league.

              Overall I would still take beal/wall over DD/lowry considering wall is 23 and beal is only 20, which is insane.
              I think the future (if Lowry signs) will include two powerhouse teams in the East, Raptors + Wizards, with two competing backcourts. Raptors the more mature, peaking talent, backcourt; Wizards, the younger faster, still immature, backcourt.

              The make up of the rest of the team becomes the decisive factor.
              The Baltic Beast is unstoppable!

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              • #82
                Wall and Beal have been the better backcourt in the playoffs, mostly because Beal has been playing out of his mind, but 6 games isn't a very big sample.
                That is a normal collar. Move on, find a new slant.

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                • #83
                  KLow/Dd > wall/beal


                  Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
                  @Chr1st1anL

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                  • #84
                    I think if they were matched up in the playoffs .. DeRozan would outplay Beal and Wall would outplay Lowry

                    Sent from my HTC One using Tapatalk

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                    • #85
                      iblastoff wrote: View Post
                      so anyone still think DD/lowry are better than wall/beal?
                      The Wall/Beal combination have been so, so good these playoffs. Maturity they've shown is off the charts.

                      I think this question can be properly answered within the first 20-25 games next year (assuming Lowry returns).
                      Twitter - @thekid_it

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                      • #86
                        If Beal is for real with these playoffs, it might be Wall/Beal. But if DD makes real strides defensively, the ones he's capable of with his wicked athleticism, then it's KL/DD
                        @Boymusic66

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                        • #87
                          Why so much focus on backcourt? If the last 20 years are any indication, great backcourts don't win championships unless one of them is named either Michael Jordan or Kobe Bryant.

                          Frontcourt is where it's at.
                          Last edited by ebrian; Wed May 7, 2014, 11:59 AM.
                          your pal,
                          ebrian

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                          • #88
                            ebrian wrote: View Post
                            Why so much focus on backcourt? If the last 20 years are any indication, great backcourts don't win championships unless one of them is named either Michael Jordan or Kobe Bryant.

                            Frontcourt is where it's at.
                            JV is where it's at.
                            The Baltic Beast is unstoppable!

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                            • #89
                              ebrian wrote: View Post
                              Why so much focus on backcourt? If the last 20 years are any indication, great backcourts don't win championships unless one of them is named either Michael Jordan or Kobe Bryant.

                              Frontcourt is where it's at.
                              Umm. Dwyane Wade/LeBron James? Paul Pierce/Ray Allen/Rajon Rondo? Manu Ginobili/Tony Parker?

                              Even the Dallas team that won the Championship 3 years ago had a great backourt. Jason Kidd and Jason Terry.

                              You need to have a great backcourt if you want to win in this league.
                              Mamba Mentality

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                              • #90
                                TRex wrote: View Post
                                Umm. Dwyane Wade/LeBron James? Paul Pierce/Ray Allen/Rajon Rondo? Manu Ginobili/Tony Parker?

                                Even the Dallas team that won the Championship 3 years ago had a great backourt. Jason Kidd and Jason Terry.

                                You need to have a great backcourt if you want to win in this league.
                                We'll all those teams had solid front court players too
                                First lebron James is lebron James no argument
                                Pierce played sf Allen was good while rondo is mad overrated, they also had Garnett
                                Parker and ginobli had Duncan but they are still solid as fuck
                                Dallas had a way past prime Jason Kidd and terry. Who by the way came off the bench, plus they had disco dirk, the guy bargs was supposto be
                                I'm back. I no longer worship joe johnson

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