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  • #31
    Fully wrote: View Post
    This opinion does have some merit though, doesn't it? We're 20-20, and in any other year, a .500 record would have gotten you the..

    8th seed in 2013.
    9th seed in 2012.
    7th seed in 2011.
    Tied for 8th seed in 2010.
    7th seed in 2009.

    I don't think you can get too caught up in the team's current standing (home court in the playoffs!), and ignore some of the context that has allowed it to happen (crippling injuries all over the conference with the Raptors enjoying the best stretch of health in virtually the entire league; unprecedented amount of teams employing full-season tank jobs). In pretty much any other season we'd be exactly in the spots that we're supposedly trying to avoid.
    All i'm saying is that there are equally valid explanations as to why we are actually a good team, and we can make logical arguments as to the vast differences of these teams which you listed, namely, that the teams were based on the success of Bargnani, Hedo, Rudy Gay, Alan Anderson, etc.

    As far as whether we would be in the 8th spot in any other season, my whole point is that is also up for debate. We do just as well against good and bad teams, and play down to our competition. It's possible we could have still been a 45-47 win team. (We also could have been in dead last by this logic).

    I'm just saying it's a pointless argument to make and no one should plan the future of the team around "what would have happened if the east was good" as opposed to working with what is ACTUALLY HAPPENING

    Comment


    • #32
      golden wrote: View Post
      Hold on a sec, CalRaps and others. I think everybody is severely twisting this notion of finishing .500 this season as being the same as being stuck there forever. And conversely, finishing bottom 5 & drafting top 5 as the start of a consistently upward climb and staying there for a decade.
      No, those are the only two options. He either tanks this year and the Raps get a superstar or else he keeps the same team together for 5 years. Case closed. Judge everything he does based on decisions he makes RIGHT NOW. There are no other feasible alternatives or even options within the realm of possibility. Everything must happen by tomorrow night and it must fit entirely within one of the two above narratives. Otherwise, the universe will collapse in on itself.

      Comment


      • #33
        TRex wrote: View Post
        Right now, this team is destined to end up in no man's land if they keep this group together.

        You want to call yourself a playoff team. You gotta beat teams like LAL, Boston and Charlotte. They lost to Charlotte 3x already this season. And today, the Bobcats beat them without Kemba Walker. Charlotte's best player.

        I also don't buy all the stupid excuses like, they're tired. 7 games in 10 days. Blah blah blah. They didn't looked tired to me. They had a 19 pt lead against the Lakers yesterday in the 2nd period but they just gave it away in 2 mins. They had a 15 pt lead in the 3rd period. And they just gave it away in 2 mins.

        Today, they just kept settling for 3's and long 2's. Their D on Jefferson was pathetic specially in the 1st quarter. They just lost fair and square. No excuses.
        I cannot disagree with this analysis. Raptors are an inconsistent team period. What happened this past week does not happen to good teams. I am also not thrilled by DD's play and body language recently.

        Comment


        • #34
          BobLoblaw wrote: View Post
          We have no reason to think that Knicks would be better with Tyson healthy all year, Nets with Brook/DWill/AK, maybe even Atlanta with Horford? That makes no sense.
          Im not saying that they wouldn't be better, I'm saying that a healthy Tyson Chandler doesn't automatically equal a better team than the raptors (which they are proving right now since the knicks are still terrible and he's been playing the last couple of months)

          Same goes for NJ and ATL....Assuming people are healthy does not mean that the team plays well together, etc.

          I also just want to add, again, that this conversation is irrelevant. Brook Lopez gets injured all the time, for example. So why have a conversation about a team that has a healthy brook lopez for years to come? That's less likely than what has actually happened

          Comment


          • #35
            I am not at all impressed with the mentality of the team right now. We should be 23-17, not 20-20, and that is a significant difference. The boys dropped the ball this week. They had their chance to create some space in the atlantic at least, and those were games they NEEDED to win, not should, would or could. I thought they were on to something and then things get a little 'easier' schedule wise and they completely shit the bed. Is this simply physical? Maybe guys are getting tired and/or hurt, but I'm not buying that. They have failed to show the mental and emotional toughness necessary to maintain the focus, intensity and determination that put them in the position they were in prior to the Boston game.

            The next 5-10 games will really show what this team is about? Can they bounce back, can they sustain winning again? Let's hope they can get back to that underdog mentality and take something from that seahawks team. Oh, and we also need to find a better way to score as teams have adjusted to the 2 or 3 sets that the Raps run.

            Comment


            • #36
              slaw wrote: View Post
              No, those are the only two options. He either tanks this year and the Raps get a superstar or else he keeps the same team together for 5 years. Case closed. Judge everything he does based on decisions he makes RIGHT NOW. There are no other feasible alternatives or even options within the realm of possibility. Everything must happen by tomorrow night and it must fit entirely within one of the two above narratives. Otherwise, the universe will collapse in on itself.
              Please explain to me how the universe will collapse. A physics refresher would be nice.

              Comment


              • #37
                golden wrote: View Post
                Do people really think MU is going to sit on his butt for the next 5 years and make no changes to the roster. Do they also think that he has not flexibility to make changes? Now, obviously that's ludicrous (... no ludacris, btw). In fact, just since the Gay trade, we have acquired or significantly increased the value of at least 4 tradeable assets: DD, Lowry, Ross and 2Pat. While at the same time, increasing salary flexibility. The key decision here remains Lowry - he cannot overpay him, or he will be an overpriced asset which diminishes his trade value, that only goes down as he ages.
                1. No, I don't think MU will sit on his butt and make no changes over the next 5 years. But...

                2. I also don't think he has the flexibility (right now) to make the changes that will need to be made. Partly because...

                3. You're right, the key decision remains Lowry. If they keep him, bye-bye flexibility. If they trade him now, as an expiring contract, he might bring something back at lesser salary and provide a bit more flex. But if they hold onto him, they're paying $10-12M/year for him over the next 3-5 years. Bye-bye flex, and now you're REALLY hitching your wagon to this 'core', so you better be pretty damn confident that Derozan, Lowry, Val, Amir and Ross can improve A LOT, else All Star Weekend 2016 might be all about what could have been for Toronto...

                As for the value of assets like Derozan, Patterson, Lowry and Ross? I think you're overvaluing them all. Lowry is not a trade asset if it doesn't happen this season. Derozan's value will rise and fall with the team's W/L record, since he's the "top dog". Ross probably has some value. Patterson, too, if we didn't also have to, like Lowry, re-sign HIM in the off-season, too.

                Things are not all that rosy on the "flexibility" front, at least not right now.
                Definition of Statistics: The science of producing unreliable facts from reliable figures.

                Comment


                • #38
                  slaw wrote: View Post
                  No, those are the only two options. He either tanks this year and the Raps get a superstar or else he keeps the same team together for 5 years. Case closed. Judge everything he does based on decisions he makes RIGHT NOW. There are no other feasible alternatives or even options within the realm of possibility. Everything must happen by tomorrow night and it must fit entirely within one of the two above narratives. Otherwise, the universe will collapse in on itself.
                  Pretty much ^^

                  This is what's known as 'The Thread Closer". Nothing more to see here folks. Move along....

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    golden wrote: View Post
                    Pretty much ^^

                    This is what's known as 'The Thread Closer". Nothing more to see here folks. Move along....
                    haha!

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      golden wrote: View Post
                      Hold on a sec, CalRaps and others. I think everybody is severely twisting this notion of finishing .500 this season as being the same as being stuck there forever. And conversely, finishing bottom 5 & drafting top 5 as the start of a consistently upward climb and staying there for a decade.

                      Do people really think MU is going to sit on his butt for the next 5 years and make no changes to the roster. Do they also think that he has no flexibility to make changes? Now, obviously that's ludicrous (... no ludacris, btw). In fact, just since the Gay trade, we have acquired or significantly increased the value of at least 4 tradeable assets: DD, Lowry, Ross and 2Pat. While at the same time, increasing salary flexibility. The key decision here remains Lowry - he cannot overpay him, or he will be an overpriced asset which diminishes his trade value, that only goes down as he ages.

                      MU is getting paid $5M/year to improve the roster, by all means necessary. If MU is as good as advertised then he should be one of the GMs who steals those top 5 draft talent who inevitably drops every year to the late 1st round or even 2nd round. Supposedly, this draft is deep, so it should be even easier to steal one of those guys. Lots of experts even suggesting that both Wiggins and Parker might stay another year. Wiggins, in particular, just does not look ready to compete at the NBA level. I actually hope Wiggins does stay another year and work on his game.
                      Fair points.

                      I can't speak for others, but my comments are predicated mainly by the recent wave of consensus wanting to keep this core intact, largely in response to their current (ie: prior to the past 3 games) success.

                      I completely agree that MU has lots of flexibility to retool, even if Lowry (and others) is re-signed. However, at that point, any retooling would require pieces of the current core to be used in trade, since the roster would be capped-out. That logic is at odds with the notion of keeping the current core intact.

                      The idea of retooling/rebuilding is what I've been pushing since the offseason. If the optimists in the group (for lack of better term) agree that some sort of retooling will be required by MU, in order to take this team to the next level, then I don't understand the hesitancy to start that retooling this season. Any talk of retooling this season (which tends to feel more like rebuilding, since in-season deals are typically current value for future value), has often been lumped in with tanking.

                      If there is general agreement that some degree of retooling is required, the debate really comes down to 2 things:
                      - which players should stay and which should go
                      - when is/can be best time to sell high on whichever players will go (ie: now, at trade deadline, at draft, next offseason)?

                      Since only MU is privy to that information concerning both points, it shouldn't come as any surprise that there's so much disagreement around here! lol

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        BallaBalla wrote: View Post
                        Im not saying that they wouldn't be better, I'm saying that a healthy Tyson Chandler doesn't automatically equal a better team than the raptors (which they are proving right now since the knicks are still terrible and he's been playing the last couple of months)

                        Same goes for NJ and ATL....Assuming people are healthy does not mean that the team plays well together, etc.

                        I also just want to add, again, that this conversation is irrelevant. Brook Lopez gets injured all the time, for example. So why have a conversation about a team that has a healthy brook lopez for years to come? That's less likely than what has actually happened
                        i think its bizarre when the raptors win a few games, all of a sudden theres this inflated sense of worth that we can call other teams terrible. knicks terrible? they went 5-5 in their last stretch, and this was with wins over the spurs, a fully rosted miami and dallas. they beat everyone they were 'supposed' to beat (philly, detroit, no bledsoe suns) with respectable losses to houston, clippers and indiana. charlotte and brooklyn could have gone either way but they lost to both.

                        compare that to the raptors, who have so far NOT beat the teams they were 'supposed' to win against. our only main achievement in january was beating the pacers at home. no one expected us to beat miami and indiana again (which we didnt) and then we start losing to a bunch of teams we were 'supposed' to win against.

                        so yah, i don't think knicks can count as being terrible unless you have a much worse description for the raptors.

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          iblastoff wrote: View Post
                          i think its bizarre when the raptors win a few games, all of a sudden theres this inflated sense of worth that we can call other teams terrible. knicks terrible? they went 5-5 in their last stretch, and this was with wins over the spurs, a fully rosted miami and dallas. they beat everyone they were 'supposed' to beat (philly, detroit, no bledsoe suns) with respectable losses to houston, clippers and indiana. charlotte and brooklyn could have gone either way but they lost to both.

                          compare that to the raptors, who have so far NOT beat the teams they were 'supposed' to win against. our only main achievement in january was beating the pacers at home. no one expected us to beat miami and indiana again (which we didnt) and then we start losing to a bunch of teams we were 'supposed' to win against.

                          so yah, i don't think knicks can count as being terrible unless you have a much worse description for the raptors.
                          The knicks are terrible, however you measure it. You know that!

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            It all comes down to this.

                            Basically, the way I see it is if we lose the next two games Masai will drop an atom bomb on top of the ACC and the rebuilding will commence.
                            Who is the first to go if this happens? Lowry? Does he wait until the all stars have been selected? Am I being melo-dramatic?
                            I had seen the light and now it has gone! Where do we go now?!
                            You come at the King, you best not miss.

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              CalgaryRapsFan wrote: View Post
                              Fair points.

                              I can't speak for others, but my comments are predicated mainly by the recent wave of consensus wanting to keep this core intact, largely in response to their current (ie: prior to the past 3 games) success.

                              I completely agree that MU has lots of flexibility to retool, even if Lowry (and others) is re-signed. However, at that point, any retooling would require pieces of the current core to be used in trade, since the roster would be capped-out. That logic is at odds with the notion of keeping the current core intact.

                              The idea of retooling/rebuilding is what I've been pushing since the offseason. If the optimists in the group (for lack of better term) agree that some sort of retooling will be required by MU, in order to take this team to the next level, then I don't understand the hesitancy to start that retooling this season. Any talk of retooling this season (which tends to feel more like rebuilding, since in-season deals are typically current value for future value), has often been lumped in with tanking.

                              If there is general agreement that some degree of retooling is required, the debate really comes down to 2 things:
                              - which players should stay and which should go
                              - when is/can be best time to sell high on whichever players will go (ie: now, at trade deadline, at draft, next offseason)?

                              Since only MU is privy to that information concerning both points, it shouldn't come as any surprise that there's so much disagreement around here! lol

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                If we lose the next 2, I don't think Masai will be rushed into anything. But I'd expect the rumour mill to start swirling pretty loudly again.

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