Stuck in the middle !!!

[BallaBalla]

i think its bizarre when the raptors win a few games, all of a sudden theres this inflated sense of worth that we can call other teams terrible. knicks terrible? they went 5-5 in their last stretch, and this was with wins over the spurs, a fully rosted miami and dallas. they beat everyone they were 'supposed' to beat (philly, detroit, no bledsoe suns) with respectable losses to houston, clippers and indiana. charlotte and brooklyn could have gone either way but they lost to both.

compare that to the raptors, who have so far NOT beat the teams they were 'supposed' to win against. our only main achievement in january was beating the pacers at home. no one expected us to beat miami and indiana again (which we didnt) and then we start losing to a bunch of teams we were 'supposed' to win against.

so yah, i don't think knicks can count as being terrible unless you have a much worse description for the raptors.

We'll have to agree to disagree on this.

I think that we are a much better team (this year). Not necessarily on paper, but we are better coached, are better defensively and are more disciplined. player for player, we have less individual offensive talent, yes, but I think the knicks are terrible.

Lastly, they're 15-26. for $%#! sakes, if we were 15-26...wouldn't you be saying "we are terrible"?

And, as this thread is also about potential over the next few years, we have WAY more potential than they do. The impact of Carmelo leaving, if and when he does, will be enormously larger than if Lowry leaves our team. (again, two speculative arguments that can be made either way).

[CalgaryRapsFan]

Ok, Cal, I hear ya, and I thought that slaw ended the thread, lol, but you just raised another major sticking point – with me, anyway.

Why are people acting like MU has done absolutely NOTHING this year? He’s already made one of the biggest trades in the NBA this season. Why can’t people accept that as a significant re-building / re-tooling move? Well, if MU is in wait and see mode, then the other GMs must be back-peddling. And why are so many people (like Tim W.) saying that MU can’t make tough decisions? Wasn’t NOT trading Lowry for Felton & Shumpert already great decision? Do people just want him out there making deals for the sake of making deals and looking busy? That’s Colangelo right there. Personally, I prefer MU to wait until there are attractive deals out there that he can extract maximum value before pulling the trigger. Preparation, patience and timing are critical in any business dealing. Otherwise, dealing from a position of desperation gets you fleeced. I would even prefer him to wait until the summer to decide on re-signing Lowry, because we might be able to find better options at PG, or we could go into tank mode NEXT season, if some of the NCAA freshmen decide not to declare in 2014.

I think there are two reasons for this sort of thinking, both of which sort of fall into the feel of 'unfinished business'.

First, I think most people (NBA experts/insiders, fans and dare I say possibly even MU?) believed the Gay trade was the start of a rebuilding process, designed to reshape this team with the future in mind, while enjoying the residual benefit of tanking this season for a better draft pick. Given the intense Lowry rumors in the wake of the Gay trade, it certainly seemed like the Gay trade had set a process in motion, which has seemingly come to an abrupt halt. The team unexpectedly improved and made a run up the EC standings, which has caused everybody to re-evaluate all options.

Second, despite the team's unexpected success in the post-Gay era, there's still huge uncertainty about what this roster's ceiling is (be it this season or in the future). The team is currently in a 3-way tie for 4th place in an historically weak EC, entrenched in the middle third of the league, seemingly epitomizing the "no man's land" that MU publically said he would absolutely avoid.

The post-Gay win streak and even more recent 3-game losing skid (plus the fact that Lowry is an expiring contract), have only served to reinforce the feeling that this team is at a bit of a crossroads this season, as the trade deadline approaches. Does MU view this team as being in the dreaded "no man's land" as currently constructed? Will MU take advantage of the weak EC and gear up for an unexpected playoff run? Will MU decide to continue the rebuilding process most people thought the Gay trade signaled?

Uncertainty and perhaps apprehension, regardless what side of the playoffs/tank/rebuild/retool debate you might be on, given how closely MU is playing his cards to his chest.

[Nilanka]

Wasn’t NOT trading Lowry for Felton & Shumpert already great decision?

I wouldn't call it a great decision. I'd call it a risky decision.

[Nilanka]

If we lose the next 2, I don't think Masai will be rushed into anything. But I'd expect the rumour mill to start swirling pretty loudly again.

[golden]

Fair points.

I can't speak for others, but my comments are predicated mainly by the recent wave of consensus wanting to keep this core intact, largely in response to their current (ie: prior to the past 3 games) success.

I completely agree that MU has lots of flexibility to retool, even if Lowry (and others) is re-signed. However, at that point, any retooling would require pieces of the current core to be used in trade, since the roster would be capped-out. That logic is at odds with the notion of keeping the current core intact.

The idea of retooling/rebuilding is what I've been pushing since the offseason. If the optimists in the group (for lack of better term) agree that some sort of retooling will be required by MU, in order to take this team to the next level, then I don't understand the hesitancy to start that retooling this season. Any talk of retooling this season (which tends to feel more like rebuilding, since in-season deals are typically current value for future value), has often been lumped in with tanking.

If there is general agreement that some degree of retooling is required, the debate really comes down to 2 things:
- which players should stay and which should go
- when is/can be best time to sell high on whichever players will go (ie: now, at trade deadline, at draft, next offseason)?

Since only MU is privy to that information concerning both points, it shouldn't come as any surprise that there's so much disagreement around here! lol

Ok, Cal, I hear ya, and I thought that slaw ended the thread, lol, but you just raised another major sticking point – with me, anyway.

Why are people acting like MU has done absolutely NOTHING this year? He’s already made one of the biggest trades in the NBA this season. Why can’t people accept that as a significant re-building / re-tooling move? Well, if MU is in wait and see mode, then the other GMs must be back-peddling. And why are so many people (like Tim W.) saying that MU can’t make tough decisions? Wasn’t NOT trading Lowry for Felton & Shumpert already great decision? Do people just want him out there making deals for the sake of making deals and looking busy? That’s Colangelo right there. Personally, I prefer MU to wait until there are attractive deals out there that he can extract maximum value before pulling the trigger. Preparation, patience and timing are critical in any business dealing. Otherwise, dealing from a position of desperation gets you fleeced. I would even prefer him to wait until the summer to decide on re-signing Lowry, because we might be able to find better options at PG, or we could go into tank mode NEXT season, if some of the NCAA freshmen decide not to declare in 2014.

[Mr.Z]

It all comes down to this.

Basically, the way I see it is if we lose the next two games Masai will drop an atom bomb on top of the ACC and the rebuilding will commence.
Who is the first to go if this happens? Lowry? Does he wait until the all stars have been selected? Am I being melo-dramatic?
I had seen the light and now it has gone! Where do we go now?!

[JawsGT]

i think its bizarre when the raptors win a few games, all of a sudden theres this inflated sense of worth that we can call other teams terrible. knicks terrible? they went 5-5 in their last stretch, and this was with wins over the spurs, a fully rosted miami and dallas. they beat everyone they were 'supposed' to beat (philly, detroit, no bledsoe suns) with respectable losses to houston, clippers and indiana. charlotte and brooklyn could have gone either way but they lost to both.

compare that to the raptors, who have so far NOT beat the teams they were 'supposed' to win against. our only main achievement in january was beating the pacers at home. no one expected us to beat miami and indiana again (which we didnt) and then we start losing to a bunch of teams we were 'supposed' to win against.

so yah, i don't think knicks can count as being terrible unless you have a much worse description for the raptors.

The knicks are terrible, however you measure it. You know that!

[iblastoff]

Im not saying that they wouldn't be better, I'm saying that a healthy Tyson Chandler doesn't automatically equal a better team than the raptors (which they are proving right now since the knicks are still terrible and he's been playing the last couple of months)

Same goes for NJ and ATL....Assuming people are healthy does not mean that the team plays well together, etc.

I also just want to add, again, that this conversation is irrelevant. Brook Lopez gets injured all the time, for example. So why have a conversation about a team that has a healthy brook lopez for years to come? That's less likely than what has actually happened

i think its bizarre when the raptors win a few games, all of a sudden theres this inflated sense of worth that we can call other teams terrible. knicks terrible? they went 5-5 in their last stretch, and this was with wins over the spurs, a fully rosted miami and dallas. they beat everyone they were 'supposed' to beat (philly, detroit, no bledsoe suns) with respectable losses to houston, clippers and indiana. charlotte and brooklyn could have gone either way but they lost to both.

compare that to the raptors, who have so far NOT beat the teams they were 'supposed' to win against. our only main achievement in january was beating the pacers at home. no one expected us to beat miami and indiana again (which we didnt) and then we start losing to a bunch of teams we were 'supposed' to win against.

so yah, i don't think knicks can count as being terrible unless you have a much worse description for the raptors.

[CalgaryRapsFan]

Hold on a sec, CalRaps and others. I think everybody is severely twisting this notion of finishing .500 this season as being the same as being stuck there forever. And conversely, finishing bottom 5 & drafting top 5 as the start of a consistently upward climb and staying there for a decade.

Do people really think MU is going to sit on his butt for the next 5 years and make no changes to the roster. Do they also think that he has no flexibility to make changes? Now, obviously that's ludicrous (... no ludacris, btw). In fact, just since the Gay trade, we have acquired or significantly increased the value of at least 4 tradeable assets: DD, Lowry, Ross and 2Pat. While at the same time, increasing salary flexibility. The key decision here remains Lowry - he cannot overpay him, or he will be an overpriced asset which diminishes his trade value, that only goes down as he ages.

MU is getting paid $5M/year to improve the roster, by all means necessary. If MU is as good as advertised then he should be one of the GMs who steals those top 5 draft talent who inevitably drops every year to the late 1st round or even 2nd round. Supposedly, this draft is deep, so it should be even easier to steal one of those guys. Lots of experts even suggesting that both Wiggins and Parker might stay another year. Wiggins, in particular, just does not look ready to compete at the NBA level. I actually hope Wiggins does stay another year and work on his game.

Fair points.

I can't speak for others, but my comments are predicated mainly by the recent wave of consensus wanting to keep this core intact, largely in response to their current (ie: prior to the past 3 games) success.

I completely agree that MU has lots of flexibility to retool, even if Lowry (and others) is re-signed. However, at that point, any retooling would require pieces of the current core to be used in trade, since the roster would be capped-out. That logic is at odds with the notion of keeping the current core intact.

The idea of retooling/rebuilding is what I've been pushing since the offseason. If the optimists in the group (for lack of better term) agree that some sort of retooling will be required by MU, in order to take this team to the next level, then I don't understand the hesitancy to start that retooling this season. Any talk of retooling this season (which tends to feel more like rebuilding, since in-season deals are typically current value for future value), has often been lumped in with tanking.

If there is general agreement that some degree of retooling is required, the debate really comes down to 2 things:
- which players should stay and which should go
- when is/can be best time to sell high on whichever players will go (ie: now, at trade deadline, at draft, next offseason)?

Since only MU is privy to that information concerning both points, it shouldn't come as any surprise that there's so much disagreement around here! lol

[BallaBalla]

Pretty much ^^

This is what's known as 'The Thread Closer". Nothing more to see here folks. Move along....

haha!

[golden]

No, those are the only two options. He either tanks this year and the Raps get a superstar or else he keeps the same team together for 5 years. Case closed. Judge everything he does based on decisions he makes RIGHT NOW. There are no other feasible alternatives or even options within the realm of possibility. Everything must happen by tomorrow night and it must fit entirely within one of the two above narratives. Otherwise, the universe will collapse in on itself.

Pretty much ^^

This is what's known as 'The Thread Closer". Nothing more to see here folks. Move along....

[jimmie]

Do people really think MU is going to sit on his butt for the next 5 years and make no changes to the roster. Do they also think that he has not flexibility to make changes? Now, obviously that's ludicrous (... no ludacris, btw). In fact, just since the Gay trade, we have acquired or significantly increased the value of at least 4 tradeable assets: DD, Lowry, Ross and 2Pat. While at the same time, increasing salary flexibility. The key decision here remains Lowry - he cannot overpay him, or he will be an overpriced asset which diminishes his trade value, that only goes down as he ages.

1. No, I don't think MU will sit on his butt and make no changes over the next 5 years. But...

2. I also don't think he has the flexibility (right now) to make the changes that will need to be made. Partly because...

3. You're right, the key decision remains Lowry. If they keep him, bye-bye flexibility. If they trade him now, as an expiring contract, he might bring something back at lesser salary and provide a bit more flex. But if they hold onto him, they're paying $10-12M/year for him over the next 3-5 years. Bye-bye flex, and now you're REALLY hitching your wagon to this 'core', so you better be pretty damn confident that Derozan, Lowry, Val, Amir and Ross can improve A LOT, else All Star Weekend 2016 might be all about what could have been for Toronto...

As for the value of assets like Derozan, Patterson, Lowry and Ross? I think you're overvaluing them all. Lowry is not a trade asset if it doesn't happen this season. Derozan's value will rise and fall with the team's W/L record, since he's the "top dog". Ross probably has some value. Patterson, too, if we didn't also have to, like Lowry, re-sign HIM in the off-season, too.

Things are not all that rosy on the "flexibility" front, at least not right now.

[psrs1]

No, those are the only two options. He either tanks this year and the Raps get a superstar or else he keeps the same team together for 5 years. Case closed. Judge everything he does based on decisions he makes RIGHT NOW. There are no other feasible alternatives or even options within the realm of possibility. Everything must happen by tomorrow night and it must fit entirely within one of the two above narratives. Otherwise, the universe will collapse in on itself.

Please explain to me how the universe will collapse. A physics refresher would be nice.

[JawsGT]

I am not at all impressed with the mentality of the team right now. We should be 23-17, not 20-20, and that is a significant difference. The boys dropped the ball this week. They had their chance to create some space in the atlantic at least, and those were games they NEEDED to win, not should, would or could. I thought they were on to something and then things get a little 'easier' schedule wise and they completely shit the bed. Is this simply physical? Maybe guys are getting tired and/or hurt, but I'm not buying that. They have failed to show the mental and emotional toughness necessary to maintain the focus, intensity and determination that put them in the position they were in prior to the Boston game.

The next 5-10 games will really show what this team is about? Can they bounce back, can they sustain winning again? Let's hope they can get back to that underdog mentality and take something from that seahawks team. Oh, and we also need to find a better way to score as teams have adjusted to the 2 or 3 sets that the Raps run.

[BallaBalla]

We have no reason to think that Knicks would be better with Tyson healthy all year, Nets with Brook/DWill/AK, maybe even Atlanta with Horford? That makes no sense.

Im not saying that they wouldn't be better, I'm saying that a healthy Tyson Chandler doesn't automatically equal a better team than the raptors (which they are proving right now since the knicks are still terrible and he's been playing the last couple of months)

Same goes for NJ and ATL....Assuming people are healthy does not mean that the team plays well together, etc.

I also just want to add, again, that this conversation is irrelevant. Brook Lopez gets injured all the time, for example. So why have a conversation about a team that has a healthy brook lopez for years to come? That's less likely than what has actually happened