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  • Elite NBA defence: Players vs scheme

    A really good read about the delicate balance of an NBA defence.

    http://grantland.com/the-triangle/th...n-nba-defense/
    Heir, Prince of Cambridge

    If you see KeonClark in the wasteland, please share your food and water with him.

  • #2
    God, I love Grantland.
    "Bruno?
    Heh, if he is in the D-league still in a few years I will be surprised.
    He's terrible."

    -Superjudge, 7/23

    Hope you're wrong.

    Comment


    • #3
      Axel wrote: View Post
      1) Do we have the right personnel to run our defensive scheme, or is our scheme adjusted to fit our players? Portland seems to not have great defensive players, but are employing the scheme to great team success, albeit not great defensive success.

      2) Is the rim protector position something JV can develop into or should we try and land one? What level of priority is it?

      3) With turn-overs trending down, does the Casey preferred method of playing a slower pace actually help keep the Raps ahead of the curve by emphasizing half court offensive execution?

      4) The Raps have been one of the most foul happy teams since Casey took over (currently 2nd most per game), is this a problem for the team? Is it a result of scheme or personnel (or both)?
      Let me give this a shot:

      1) I like our personnel so long as we see some improvement from Jonas. I'm not actually 100% sure what our scheme is.

      2) I think JV can develop into a rim protector. I also think that's a job that almost has to fall to the center, and I don't want to bring JV off the bench.

      3) I don't know... I just wish we had a little more emphasis on the offensive glass. I feel like we often have a single player fighting for the rebound very well. We're able to keep the ball alive, but not get it back.

      4) I think this one's a result of personnel. JV and Ross are young, so foul more. DD isn't great on defense so fouls more, and TH's job is to run into people, so he inevitably gets fouls called against him.
      "Bruno?
      Heh, if he is in the D-league still in a few years I will be surprised.
      He's terrible."

      -Superjudge, 7/23

      Hope you're wrong.

      Comment


      • #4
        stooley wrote: View Post
        Let me give this a shot:

        1) I like our personnel so long as we see some improvement from Jonas. I'm not actually 100% sure what our scheme is.

        2) I think JV can develop into a rim protector. I also think that's a job that almost has to fall to the center, and I don't want to bring JV off the bench.

        3) I don't know... I just wish we had a little more emphasis on the offensive glass. I feel like we often have a single player fighting for the rebound very well. We're able to keep the ball alive, but not get it back.

        4) I think this one's a result of personnel. JV and Ross are young, so foul more. DD isn't great on defense so fouls more, and TH's job is to run into people, so he inevitably gets fouls called against him.
        The first question is really not answerable unless we could sit in practice. Unless someone has been able to glean a schematic change following trades/personnel? I doubt we'll know the answer to this.

        I think you could have a PF fill that role, it just would be more complicated and could present issues elsewhere.

        We lead the league in fouls per game in Casey's first 2 years, so JV and Ross are only a small part of the equation.
        Heir, Prince of Cambridge

        If you see KeonClark in the wasteland, please share your food and water with him.

        Comment


        • #5
          1) Do we have the right personnel to run our defensive scheme, or is our scheme adjusted to fit our players? Portland seems to not have great defensive players, but are employing the scheme to great team success, albeit not great defensive success.

          2) Is the rim protector position something JV can develop into or should we try and land one? What level of priority is it?

          3) With turn-overs trending down, does the Casey preferred method of playing a slower pace actually help keep the Raps ahead of the curve by emphasizing half court offensive execution?

          4) The Raps have been one of the most foul happy teams since Casey took over (currently 2nd most per game), is this a problem for the team? Is it a result of scheme or personnel (or both)?
          1) Schemes are always adjusted depending on personnel. Or at least they should be. It's hard to complain about the defense given the overall numbers in Toronto.

          2) JV's defensive issues have puzzled me this year. At first, I thought it might be a scheme-related issue or poor perimeter defense (and there is some of that from time to time) but he continues to have difficulties on the defensive end. I don't think that he's going to be Bill Russell at the rim but there is no reason he can't develop into a presence back there.

          3) Not sure I understand the connection here. What I will say is that halfcourt execution is paramount in the playoffs, so the Raps won't have to adjust their style of play that much.

          4) It seems like it's less of an issue this year than the past couple but this team still fouls too much. The issue here is not just whether fouling helps a defense (that seems objectively odd to me) but the fact that if your best players are constantly fouling then they aren't on the floor to score and do the other things you need to do to win.

          Comment


          • #6
            slaw wrote: View Post
            3) Not sure I understand the connection here. What I will say is that halfcourt execution is paramount in the playoffs, so the Raps won't have to adjust their style of play that much.

            4) It seems like it's less of an issue this year than the past couple but this team still fouls too much. The issue here is not just whether fouling helps a defense (that seems objectively odd to me) but the fact that if your best players are constantly fouling then they aren't on the floor to score and do the other things you need to do to win.
            Turnovers have been decreasing league-wide for a few years now. Fewer turn-overs mean fewer transitional opportunities. Teams that rely on scoring in transition are likely going to struggle even more. With the Raps personnel, they seem an ideal team to play a fast pace (Lowry, DD, Ross, Amir/Pat, and JV can all run the floor) but have played a slow pace (I think they are 22nd this year) under Casey; that could be a benefit to the team if this trend continues and teams adjust.

            Our fouling rate has basically been 22 per game under Casey. League ranks 1st, 1st and currently 2nd.
            Heir, Prince of Cambridge

            If you see KeonClark in the wasteland, please share your food and water with him.

            Comment


            • #7
              Axel wrote: View Post
              Our fouling rate has basically been 22 per game under Casey. League ranks 1st, 1st and currently 2nd.
              My comment was simply that it seems to be less of an issue. My thought behind that comment is that the defense overall is much better so, while they may be fouling at the same rate, it hasn't been as material to their success (or lack thereof) as it seemed to be last year.

              Comment


              • #8
                I know it's often said, but I really think JV will become a defensive force, but it will take some time.
                As an Australian I have followed Andrew Bogut's career closely and when he came into the league he wasn't anything special defensively.. couldn't even really block a shot. After six years in the league, he lead the league in blocked shots, and today he's way up there in all the advanced defensive stats and is really elite at rim protection. JV has all the physical tools to be really good, just a question of if/when he can learn all the positioning and other basketball IQ related stuff that the likes of Hibbert, Gasol and Bogut etc have.

                Comment


                • #9
                  1. Casey's defense has many facets to it, including changing the coverages up often and keeping offenses off balance. It's why you see him employ zone at sometimes odd times, and his zone-man hybrid. The personal is fine, as long as the effort and focus is there, which isn't always the case, but it's clear in front of our eyes what happens when the personnel get serious. Portland's success is despite their defense, which is among the absolute worst in the league, so employing whatever scheme they have has nothing to do with their success, but everything to do with outscoring everyone. Perhaps a reason why they're struggling against good teams lately?

                  2. I think JV has much to learn and develop, but will become a serious rim protector. In the meantime, he really needs Amir's help though.

                  3. Emphasizing half court execution will be necessary come playoff time, when the best teams employ a slower pace and focus on defense.
                  "stooley": The raps are actually 8th in the league in offensive rebounds. The thing is, it's a delicate balance between chasing offensive rebounds and getting back on defense. Chasing them leads to getting burned on the other end too often. Note that last year's finalists (Heat, Spurs) are at the very bottom of O Rebounding averages, where as most teams at the top of the averages are the bottom feeders.

                  4. Both, +. Play hard, reduce freebies at the rim, lack of finesse that will come with experience. Jonas getting better will have a huge effect. PLUS, I'll forever be convinced refs are not kind to the good guys.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    RE JV, my sense is that Casey wants him to be a Tyson Chandler clone circa the Maverick days (and even as a NYK). TC is a very active and quick big man who harasses the ball carrier as far out as the perimeter and then reverses back to the rim area. JV does this too. At this point in JV's physical maturation this style is tiring him out...even more so because he is (more than TC) expected to be part of the offensive sets. This style may well have worked prior to all the weight gain last summer but that has even hampered his shooting (his lowered FT% is telling) and lift. Making JV a more under the basket protector will I believe help his development....and the team.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      salmon wrote: View Post
                      1. Casey's defense has many facets to it, including changing the coverages up often and keeping offenses off balance. It's why you see him employ zone at sometimes odd times, and his zone-man hybrid. The personal is fine, as long as the effort and focus is there, which isn't always the case, but it's clear in front of our eyes what happens when the personnel get serious. Portland's success is despite their defense, which is among the absolute worst in the league, so employing whatever scheme they have has nothing to do with their success, but everything to do with outscoring everyone. Perhaps a reason why they're struggling against good teams lately?
                      I didn't mean to suggest that we emulate Portland, but rather they are an example of a successful scheme that fails due to the wrong personnel. They are basically using the same scheme as the Spurs and Wolves, but because they don't have the right players, they can't create enough pressure with the scheme, so they fail out with it. Add a player like Corey Brewer or Kwahi Leonard, and the Blazers D likely improves fairly significantly.

                      I think it is very likely why they struggle against the top teams.
                      Heir, Prince of Cambridge

                      If you see KeonClark in the wasteland, please share your food and water with him.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Casey likes his bigs to be aggressive on PnR. Amir and Patterson are the most aggressive because of their mobility. Tyler and Hayes less aggressive for obvious reasons. They are not Miami level aggressive but are more aggressive than most teams in the league even with their slower bigs.

                        Portland played a similar style last year. Terry Stotts was an assistant in Dallas with Casey and brought that style with him to Portland. But this year they have changed to a more conservative PnR defense similar to Chicago and Indiana.

                        http://www.blazersedge.com/2013/11/2...d-roll-defense

                        Last year, Portland ran a pick-and-roll defense that hedged high and hard on screens. It was a typical help-and-recover that forced the post player to guard the ball handler from turning the corner on the pick and driving to the lane. LaMarcus Aldridge proved confident and mobile enough in the system, but the weak point was JJ Hickson.
                        With Hickson gone, Terry Stotts has re-tooled the Portland pick-and-roll defense and adopted a new approach, a soft ICE defense. It is a system used by top defensive teams like Chicago and Indiana, especially when the pick-and-roll involves their large, less-agile centers. Last year in New Orleans, Monty Williams employed the same approach in pick plays defended by Portland's new starting center, Robin Lopez.

                        The basic strategy is fairly simple. Instead of switching or hedging, the defending guard will try to fight over the top of every screen. As they fight over the screen, they put backside pressure on the ball handler and make quick three-pointers uncomfortable. Meanwhile, the post defender sags back, usually around the free throw line, with the intent to guard the lane and prevent penetration.
                        Here are a few more articles about defense.

                        Doug Eberhardt from SBNation

                        What is the Nail? The key to help defense
                        http://www.sbnation.com/2013/12/19/5...l-spurs-pacers

                        The concept of 'two nine,' or how big men patrol the paint
                        http://www.sbnation.com/2014/1/9/529...deandre-jordan

                        What does it mean to 'blue' a pick and roll?
                        http://www.sbnation.com/2014/1/16/53...phis-grizzlies


                        Mike Prada from SBNation

                        Meet the Oklahoma City Thunder's suffocating defense
                        http://www.sbnation.com/nba/2014/2/5...n-kevin-durant

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          bobbybutler wrote: View Post
                          Casey likes his bigs to be aggressive on PnR. Amir and Patterson are the most aggressive because of their mobility. Tyler and Hayes less aggressive for obvious reasons. They are not Miami level aggressive but are more aggressive than most teams in the league even with their slower bigs.

                          Portland played a similar style last year. Terry Stotts was an assistant in Dallas with Casey and brought that style with him to Portland. But this year they have changed to a more conservative PnR defense similar to Chicago and Indiana.

                          http://www.blazersedge.com/2013/11/2...d-roll-defense

                          The basic strategy is fairly simple. Instead of switching or hedging, the defending guard will try to fight over the top of every screen. As they fight over the screen, they put backside pressure on the ball handler and make quick three-pointers uncomfortable. Meanwhile, the post defender sags back, usually around the free throw line, with the intent to guard the lane and prevent penetration.
                          The bold is a great simple explanation of the basic premise talked about in the article. Takes away the 3 and protects the paint, leaving the mid-range jumper (with back pressure) as the primary scoring option.
                          Heir, Prince of Cambridge

                          If you see KeonClark in the wasteland, please share your food and water with him.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            What if JV slid to the 4 and we get a guy like Chandler in 2015? :O Say JV never becomes that anchor..

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Axel wrote: View Post
                              The article raises a few Raps questions:

                              1) Do we have the right personnel to run our defensive scheme, or is our scheme adjusted to fit our players? Portland seems to not have great defensive players, but are employing the scheme to great team success, albeit not great defensive success.

                              2) Is the rim protector position something JV can develop into or should we try and land one? What level of priority is it?

                              3) With turn-overs trending down, does the Casey preferred method of playing a slower pace actually help keep the Raps ahead of the curve by emphasizing half court offensive execution?

                              4) The Raps have been one of the most foul happy teams since Casey took over (currently 2nd most per game), is this a problem for the team? Is it a result of scheme or personnel (or both)?
                              1-Yes and Yes. If the Raptors replaced Amir or Patterson with Monroe they would change their PnR defense and be more conservative. Thats why the Raptors are not getting Monroe, he would change this teams identity on defense.

                              2-Yes he can. Rim Protection is essential to winning a champiosnhip. Getting a rim protector is a priority for every GM.

                              4-Scheme.
                              Last edited by bobbybutler; Thu Feb 13, 2014, 02:26 PM.

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