Everything Kyle Lowry

[Superjudge]

LOL, you really know your stuff. Hockey is like the one sport where +/- is of the least value. While the NBA is the one league with a high enough possession count for +/- to actually have value, especially the adjusted versions we have available.

I disagree, +/- will always be big to me in Hockey...it means something.

[DanH]

I disagree, +/- will always be big to me in Hockey...it means something.

It's well established as meaning almost nothing in hockey. Less than basically any other sport. Need a higher event statistic like shots or shot attempts or even scoring chance ratio to get a meaningful sample. Plus minus is just noise, even over a full season.

An NBA player can accumulate the same +/- sample in a couple games that an NHL player can rack up in a season.

[Superjudge]

Fuck that it is not.

There is a reason the top plus minus guys are all top players.

You are on this ice for more for than against.

They can't fucking measure it because some of it is unmeasurable.

So tired of people saying this shit, I like your big brain Danny, not on this one though.

(I had a good +/- when I played Hockey)

[DanH]

Fuck that it is not.

There is a reason the top plus minus guys are all top players.

You are on this ice for more for than against.

They can't fucking measure it because some of it is unmeasurable.

So tired of people saying this shit, I like your big brain Danny, not on this one though.

(I had a good +/- when I played Hockey)

The reason the top plus-minus guys are top players is because top players tend to be on good teams, and tend to play a lot of minutes. And also tend to get a lot of offensive zone starts to maximize their offensive talent.

I'm not an expert on NHL stats. I defer to those who know way more than me, and the one thing the entire NHL stats community agrees on is that +/- is absolute trash.

[Maury]

Kyle played really really really really well tonight. Exactly the way we need him to play.

[A.I]

Kyle played really really really really well tonight. Exactly the way we need him to play.

He let his competitiveness get the better of him, especially against his best friend. Thats how it should be between friends.

[Superjudge]

The reason the top plus-minus guys are top players is because top players tend to be on good teams, and tend to play a lot of minutes. And also tend to get a lot of offensive zone starts to maximize their offensive talent.

I'm not an expert on NHL stats. I defer to those who know way more than me, and the one thing the entire NHL stats community agrees on is that +/- is absolute trash.

Nope.
Disagree.

Fact is, for theo most part, he best players on every team have the best, or close to the best +/-

yup.

[Shaolin Fantastic]

Terrible game from Paul George last night. -4 +/-, didn't win his minutes.

[DanH]

Terrible game from Paul George last night. -4 +/-, didn't win his minutes.

Ah, very good, you've stumbled across the reason the NBA is a great league to use the statistic in - over small samples it is unreliable and full of context, but over the larger sample of multiple NBA games, that noise tends to wash out. An NHL player could take months to put together PG's sample from last night and one could conceivably decide it meant he was bad, but it would be purely a small sample problem.

There is also a reason when evaluating individuals we tend to use adjusted versions of the stat - there is still a lot of context in individual numbers even over large samples, while lineups remove much of that context and can stabilize in far smaller samples.

[DanH]

Nope.
Disagree.

Fact is, for theo most part, he best players on every team have the best, or close to the best +/-

yup.

Who would you say the best Toronto Maple Leaf has been this year?

[Superjudge]

Depends upon what you like.
I played defence.
I killed penalties.
I had a good +/-

So I like Hainsey, and I like Reilly.... to a lessor extent Muzzin because he's new.


Matthews gets paid most but I think he's a massive slacker, he gets lit up as much as he scores so its a pain in the arse.

I know why they say its a bad stat, I understand it, I just like it and always will.... maybe its because I use it along with other things to make my opinions? Who knows. I sure dont

[Yuri Gagarin]

Kyle is dialed in. That is huge!

[Mitchell Duong]

Nope.
Disagree.

Fact is, for theo most part, he best players on every team have the best, or close to the best +/-

yup.

No he's right. +/- in and of itself doesn't tell you much of anything. There are far better metrics to tell you the quality of the players. If those metrics are good and you're on a good team and have some luck (such as good goaltending) then you'll have a good +/-. If you're on a bad team or have a bad goaltender than you won't and that doesn't relfect your play.

[Superjudge]

There arent a lot of bad players in the top 20 of the +/-
There ARE a lot of really solid substance guys.

Thats that

[Shaolin Fantastic]

There arent a lot of bad players in the top 20 of the +/-
There ARE a lot of really solid substance guys.

Thats that

The top players in +/- are basically the guys who play the most on the best teams.

It's not a surprise that these are almost all good players.